Discussion:
More Goodies on Islam. A religion of peace. A religion of slaves.
(too old to reply)
w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
2005-09-07 14:26:35 UTC
Permalink
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm

THE PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY FROM ISLAM

by Silas



ABSTRACT



During Muhammad's lifetime, and the lifetimes of the next 4
"Rightly Guided Caliphs", a number of Muslims left the faith of Islam.
The punishment for leaving Islam was death. Those that had left the
faith were either killed outright, or were given a few days to turn back
to Islam. If they persisted in leaving Islam they were put to death.
This death sentence is in effect whether or not the apostasy occurred in
an Islamic state or not.





Text inside of [ ] type brackets are my comments. Text inside of ( )
type brackets are from the Hadith itself.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---



INTRODUCTION



One of the more controversial topics for Muslims in the West
is the punishment for apostasy from Islam. Muslims living in the Mideast
have no problem with the concept of putting apostates to death. But to
Muslims living in the West it is an embarrassing Islamic edict. The West
values freedom of thought and freedom of speech are two virtues that have
never blossomed under Islam. Consequently when asked about the Islamic
law for apostates Muslims in the West hide behind excuses such as "only a
true Islamic state can execute apostates", or "punishment was carried out
because those apostates were threats to the new Islamic state, and it is
not needed anymore".





What exactly was the law during Muhammad's and the Caliph's
time? What were the requirements for a death sentence to be carried out?
Was the sentence only for a short period of time? Was it only to be
administered under a "true Islamic state", or did it apply to anyone who
had left Islam? A close examination of the Quran, Hadith, and Sirat will
show that indeed, the punishment for leaving Islam, either under an
Islamic government, or not, was execution.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---



To begin with, the Quran does not come out and explicitly
state that apostates should be murdered. However, there are a number of
Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy, and they shed some light on the
punishment for apostates.





Starting with the Quran.



Sura 9:73,74 -



"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and
deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fire.
They swear by God that they said nothing. Yet they uttered the word of
unbelief and renounced Islam after embracing it. They sought to do what
they could not attain. Yet they had no reason to be spiteful except
perhaps because God and His apostle had enriched them through His bounty.
If they repent, it will indeed be better for them, but if they give no
heed, God will sternly punish them, both in this world and in the world
to come. They shall have none on this earth to protect or help them."
[Dawood]



We see here that Allah urges Muhammad to "make war" on the
people who have left Islam. It also states that "Allah will punish them
in this world, and in the world to come".



What exactly Muhammad was to do to the people in his "making
war" on them is not explicitly stated, but it can be surmised that they
will be physically punished, if not outright killed. Further, Allah
Himself is also going to punish those who leave Islam. What is His
punishment? Whatever it is, is will be unpleasant.





Sura 47:23-28 -



"If you renounced the faith, you would surely do evil in the
land, and violate the ties of blood. Such are those on whom God has laid
His curse, leaving them deaf and sightless.... Those who return to
unbelief after God's guidance has been revealed to them are seduced by
Satan and inspired by him....





Again, God is punishing people, in this world, but the
totality of punishment isn't detailed... other than becoming "deaf and
sightless". No doubt this is spiritual blindness, because millions have
left Islam and have never become physically blind. Note also Muhammad¡¯s
fear and hatred of and toward those that have left Islam šC he claims
that they will ¡°do evil in the land and violate the ties of blood.¡±
Perhaps his mistake assumption is his justification for ordering the
killing of apostates.





Additionally one could review Sura 3:86-91 and Sura 16:106.
These verses clearly state that apostates will be punished in hellfire.
However, though it is implied, the punishment meted out while they live
is unclear. Sura 4:137, similarly shows that God will not forgive the
apostates, but no mention of a earthly punishment is made.



Finally, brief mention is made of apostates in 3:72, 5:54,
9:107 but none of these shed any penetrating light on the subject.



QURANIC VERSES SUMMARY



A review of the Quran¡¯s position on apostates:



Muhammad is to ¡°make war¡± on them

Allah is going to punish them in this world and in the next

Allah curses them

They will be punished in hellfire







The Dictionary of Quranic Terms and Concepts - page 16,
(written by M. Mir - a Muslim writer), defines the actual Quranic
information as:



"APOSTASY

Arabic "irtidad". Traditional Islamic law prescribes the
penalty of death for a Muslim who commits apostasy. The punishment is
not stated in the Quran, but is said to be based on certain Hadith. The
advocates and the opponents of the said penalty have, in their attempt to
find Quranic support for their views, appealed to certain Quranic verses,
but the fact is that none of the arguments offered do full justice to the
Quranic context......"







-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------



THE TEACHINGS OF THE HADITH ON APOSTASY



It is from the Hadith that we draw our understand and
information on the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadith, we find
no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes will be from Bukhari's Hadith,
from the 9 volume English set, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan.







Bukhari, volume 9, #17



"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a
Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah
and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in
Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits
illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate)
and leaves the Muslims."





Bukhari, volume 9, #37



"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his
throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather
before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone
except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed
somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who
committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against
Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....







In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reverters from
Islam, page 42, (following Hadith #56) it reads:



"The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who
reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn Umar Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A
female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the
obliging of the reverts from Islam to repent Allah said - ....



Following this chapter, a number of Quranic verses are given,
among them are some already mentioned. They are 3:86-89, 3:100, 4:137,
5:54, 16:106-110, 2:217.







Bukhari, volume 9, #57



Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he
burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I
had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger
forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment
(fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's
Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."





Bukhari, volume 9, #58



Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a
fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu
Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and hen reverted back to
Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I
will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah
and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that
the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed
the night prayers .....





Bukhari, volume 9, #64



Narrated Ali, "Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's
messenger, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky, than ascribe
a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you,
(not a Hadith), then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just
to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, ¡®During
the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say
the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e.
they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as
an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for
whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.¡¯"





Bukhari, volume 9, #271 [This one is similar to #58]



Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted
back to Judaism. Muadh Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Muadh
asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced
Islam, and then reverted back to Judaism." Muadh said, "I will not sit
down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His
messenger."





Bukhari, Chapter 26, from the Book of Mutual Consultation, page 339,
following Hadith # 461



"The Statement of Allah... 42:32, 3:159, ...The prophet said,
"If someone changes his religion, then kill them....."







-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---



OTHER REFERENCES





FROM THE SIRAT RASULALLAH AND THE KITAB AL-TABAQAT AL-KABIR





After Muhammad took Mecca, he order a number of people to be
killed. Several of them were apostates. Here is the background.





Muhammad ordered the execution of 10 people when he took
Mecca. Here is the list of names found in Ibn Sa'd "Tabaqat".



The quote is from the Tabaqat, Vol. 2, page 168.



"The apostle of Allah entered through Adhakhir, [into Mecca],
and prohibited fighting. He ordered six men and four women to be killed,
they were (1) Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl, (2) Habbar Ibn al-Aswad, (3) Abd
Allah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh, (4) Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi, (5) al-
Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh, (6) Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami, (7)
Hind Bint Utbah, (8) Sarah, the mawlat (enfranchised girl) of Amr Ibn
Hashim, (9) Fartana and (10) Qaribah.





THE SIRAT RASULALLAH GIVES SOME DETAILS BEHIND THE LIST OF NAMES





The information below corresponds to # 3 on the list.



"The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered
Mecca only to fight those who resisted them, except a small number who
were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the
Kaba. Among them was Abdullah Sa'd, brother of the B. Amir Luayy. The
reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used
to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Quraysh
[Mecca] and fled to Uthman Affan whose foster brother he was. The latter
hid him until he brought him to the apostle after the situation in Mecca
was tranquil, and asked that he might be granted immunity. They allege
that the apostle remained silent for a long time till finally he
[Muhammad] said yes [granting Abdullah immunity from the execution
order].







-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------



ANALYSIS



We find that although a severe physical punishment is
mentioned in the Quran, we are not told what that punishment is.
However, we find in Bukhari's Hadith, that the punishment is death.
There is no ambiguity about this. Muhammad clearly taught that apostates
are to be put to death.



Further, we find in contrast to what many Muslim apologists
assert, that these apostates are to be killed wherever they are as per
Bukhari, vol. 9, #64.



"So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills
them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."



We see from this that Muslims are instructed to kill
apostates. Further, those who commit the murder, will get a reward in
heaven.







Tying into this, we find from both Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Hisham,
that those who had apostatized prior to the incorporation of an Islamic
state in Mecca, were ordered to be executed. These people were Muslims
living in Medina, and later left Islam. When Muhammad was able to order
their deaths, he did so. These people would correspond to Muslims living
in the West, who left Islam. Following the Sunnah, these Muslims are
already under a death sentence. It would not be against Islamic law for
Muslims to murder these ex-Muslims. If anything, they would have a
reward waiting for them in heaven.









-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------



DISCUSSION



I am reminded of Jesus words, "In fact a time is coming when
anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God"... John
16:2.



Indeed, many Muslims who have converted to Christianity have
paid the price with their very lives.





When I lived in a Muslim country, I spoke with a number of
Muslims about the punishment for apostates. Several educated Muslims
told me that there were Muslim death squads operating in Europe, and that
they were trying to form similar death squads in the USA. One of their
purposes was to murder those who left Islam. While Muslims in the West
would be quick to deny that, or denounce that, Muslims living in the
Mideast support it. When I asked my Muslim friends in the Mideast if
they supported those death squads, they all said yes.





This aspect of Islam portrays one of it's most ugly sides -
i.e. the murder of those who think for themselves. Look today at the
Islamic world, we see it backwards, regressive, and primitive. The poor
people who have grown up into Islam, who have had to adopt this dark
system, are kept in bondage. It is no wonder that their countries
continue to regress since freedom of thought, freedom of creativity,
freedom of expression is stifled. We see the Muslim states falling
further behind the rest of the world in areas like education, science,
and the arts. The more Islamic a state becomes, the farther it
regresses.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------



QUESTION



1) What is to be made of a religion that forbids a man to think
and choose for himself? In effect, Islam is a type of religious slavery.
"Leave Islam, and you die".



2) How does this mental bondage affect society, and it's ability
to provide for it's people?



3) Leaving Islam doesn't necessarily mean a person is now at war
with his people. Isn't it possible for a person who is born a Muslim to
serve his country, and do no harm to it's people?







-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---



CONCLUSION



Muhammad taught that apostates are to be murdered, wherever
they are. This death sentence can be carried out wherever these Muslims
are found, either in a Muslim country, or in a non-Muslim country. The
Quran supports this notion, and both the Hadith and Sirat establish this
portion of Islamic law.







apostasy.htm
Rev A: 11-7-97

Articles by Silas
Answering Islam Home Page
George Ramayah
2005-09-07 14:37:30 UTC
Permalink
No wonder Mohd Azahari Zhang was right. Islam is a religion of peace.
Those who disagree has their heads chopped off or put to death
immediately. So no rebellion within Islam or people converting to other
faith. It's one way street.
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
THE PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY FROM ISLAM
by Silas
ABSTRACT
During Muhammad's lifetime, and the lifetimes of the next 4
"Rightly Guided Caliphs", a number of Muslims left the faith of Islam.
The punishment for leaving Islam was death. Those that had left the
faith were either killed outright, or were given a few days to turn back
to Islam. If they persisted in leaving Islam they were put to death.
This death sentence is in effect whether or not the apostasy occurred in
an Islamic state or not.
Text inside of [ ] type brackets are my comments. Text inside of ( )
type brackets are from the Hadith itself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
INTRODUCTION
One of the more controversial topics for Muslims in the West
is the punishment for apostasy from Islam. Muslims living in the Mideast
have no problem with the concept of putting apostates to death. But to
Muslims living in the West it is an embarrassing Islamic edict. The West
values freedom of thought and freedom of speech are two virtues that have
never blossomed under Islam. Consequently when asked about the Islamic
law for apostates Muslims in the West hide behind excuses such as "only a
true Islamic state can execute apostates", or "punishment was carried out
because those apostates were threats to the new Islamic state, and it is
not needed anymore".
What exactly was the law during Muhammad's and the Caliph's
time? What were the requirements for a death sentence to be carried out?
Was the sentence only for a short period of time? Was it only to be
administered under a "true Islamic state", or did it apply to anyone who
had left Islam? A close examination of the Quran, Hadith, and Sirat will
show that indeed, the punishment for leaving Islam, either under an
Islamic government, or not, was execution.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
To begin with, the Quran does not come out and explicitly
state that apostates should be murdered. However, there are a number of
Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy, and they shed some light on the
punishment for apostates.
Starting with the Quran.
Sura 9:73,74 -
"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and
deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fire.
They swear by God that they said nothing. Yet they uttered the word of
unbelief and renounced Islam after embracing it. They sought to do what
they could not attain. Yet they had no reason to be spiteful except
perhaps because God and His apostle had enriched them through His bounty.
If they repent, it will indeed be better for them, but if they give no
heed, God will sternly punish them, both in this world and in the world
to come. They shall have none on this earth to protect or help them."
[Dawood]
We see here that Allah urges Muhammad to "make war" on the
people who have left Islam. It also states that "Allah will punish them
in this world, and in the world to come".
What exactly Muhammad was to do to the people in his "making
war" on them is not explicitly stated, but it can be surmised that they
will be physically punished, if not outright killed. Further, Allah
Himself is also going to punish those who leave Islam. What is His
punishment? Whatever it is, is will be unpleasant.
Sura 47:23-28 -
"If you renounced the faith, you would surely do evil in the
land, and violate the ties of blood. Such are those on whom God has laid
His curse, leaving them deaf and sightless.... Those who return to
unbelief after God's guidance has been revealed to them are seduced by
Satan and inspired by him....
Again, God is punishing people, in this world, but the
totality of punishment isn't detailed... other than becoming "deaf and
sightless". No doubt this is spiritual blindness, because millions have
left Islam and have never become physically blind. Note also Muhammad¡¯s
fear and hatred of and toward those that have left Islam ¨C he claims
that they will ¡°do evil in the land and violate the ties of blood.¡±
Perhaps his mistake assumption is his justification for ordering the
killing of apostates.
Additionally one could review Sura 3:86-91 and Sura 16:106.
These verses clearly state that apostates will be punished in hellfire.
However, though it is implied, the punishment meted out while they live
is unclear. Sura 4:137, similarly shows that God will not forgive the
apostates, but no mention of a earthly punishment is made.
Finally, brief mention is made of apostates in 3:72, 5:54,
9:107 but none of these shed any penetrating light on the subject.
QURANIC VERSES SUMMARY
Muhammad is to ¡°make war¡± on them
Allah is going to punish them in this world and in the next
Allah curses them
They will be punished in hellfire
The Dictionary of Quranic Terms and Concepts - page 16,
(written by M. Mir - a Muslim writer), defines the actual Quranic
"APOSTASY
Arabic "irtidad". Traditional Islamic law prescribes the
penalty of death for a Muslim who commits apostasy. The punishment is
not stated in the Quran, but is said to be based on certain Hadith. The
advocates and the opponents of the said penalty have, in their attempt to
find Quranic support for their views, appealed to certain Quranic verses,
but the fact is that none of the arguments offered do full justice to the
Quranic context......"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
THE TEACHINGS OF THE HADITH ON APOSTASY
It is from the Hadith that we draw our understand and
information on the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadith, we find
no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes will be from Bukhari's Hadith,
from the 9 volume English set, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan.
Bukhari, volume 9, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a
Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah
and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in
Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits
illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate)
and leaves the Muslims."
Bukhari, volume 9, #37
"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his
throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather
before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone
except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed
somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who
committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against
Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....
In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reverters from
"The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who
reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn Umar Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A
female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the
obliging of the reverts from Islam to repent Allah said - ....
Following this chapter, a number of Quranic verses are given,
among them are some already mentioned. They are 3:86-89, 3:100, 4:137,
5:54, 16:106-110, 2:217.
Bukhari, volume 9, #57
Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he
burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I
had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger
forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment
(fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's
Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
Bukhari, volume 9, #58
Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a
fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu
Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and hen reverted back to
Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I
will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah
and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that
the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed
the night prayers .....
Bukhari, volume 9, #64
Narrated Ali, "Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's
messenger, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky, than ascribe
a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you,
(not a Hadith), then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just
to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, ¡®During
the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say
the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e.
they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as
an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for
whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.¡¯"
Bukhari, volume 9, #271 [This one is similar to #58]
Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted
back to Judaism. Muadh Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Muadh
asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced
Islam, and then reverted back to Judaism." Muadh said, "I will not sit
down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His
messenger."
Bukhari, Chapter 26, from the Book of Mutual Consultation, page 339,
following Hadith # 461
"The Statement of Allah... 42:32, 3:159, ...The prophet said,
"If someone changes his religion, then kill them....."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
OTHER REFERENCES
FROM THE SIRAT RASULALLAH AND THE KITAB AL-TABAQAT AL-KABIR
After Muhammad took Mecca, he order a number of people to be
killed. Several of them were apostates. Here is the background.
Muhammad ordered the execution of 10 people when he took
Mecca. Here is the list of names found in Ibn Sa'd "Tabaqat".
The quote is from the Tabaqat, Vol. 2, page 168.
"The apostle of Allah entered through Adhakhir, [into Mecca],
and prohibited fighting. He ordered six men and four women to be killed,
they were (1) Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl, (2) Habbar Ibn al-Aswad, (3) Abd
Allah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh, (4) Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi, (5) al-
Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh, (6) Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami, (7)
Hind Bint Utbah, (8) Sarah, the mawlat (enfranchised girl) of Amr Ibn
Hashim, (9) Fartana and (10) Qaribah.
THE SIRAT RASULALLAH GIVES SOME DETAILS BEHIND THE LIST OF NAMES
The information below corresponds to # 3 on the list.
"The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered
Mecca only to fight those who resisted them, except a small number who
were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the
Kaba. Among them was Abdullah Sa'd, brother of the B. Amir Luayy. The
reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used
to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Quraysh
[Mecca] and fled to Uthman Affan whose foster brother he was. The latter
hid him until he brought him to the apostle after the situation in Mecca
was tranquil, and asked that he might be granted immunity. They allege
that the apostle remained silent for a long time till finally he
[Muhammad] said yes [granting Abdullah immunity from the execution
order].
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
ANALYSIS
We find that although a severe physical punishment is
mentioned in the Quran, we are not told what that punishment is.
However, we find in Bukhari's Hadith, that the punishment is death.
There is no ambiguity about this. Muhammad clearly taught that apostates
are to be put to death.
Further, we find in contrast to what many Muslim apologists
assert, that these apostates are to be killed wherever they are as per
Bukhari, vol. 9, #64.
"So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills
them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
We see from this that Muslims are instructed to kill
apostates. Further, those who commit the murder, will get a reward in
heaven.
Tying into this, we find from both Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Hisham,
that those who had apostatized prior to the incorporation of an Islamic
state in Mecca, were ordered to be executed. These people were Muslims
living in Medina, and later left Islam. When Muhammad was able to order
their deaths, he did so. These people would correspond to Muslims living
in the West, who left Islam. Following the Sunnah, these Muslims are
already under a death sentence. It would not be against Islamic law for
Muslims to murder these ex-Muslims. If anything, they would have a
reward waiting for them in heaven.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
DISCUSSION
I am reminded of Jesus words, "In fact a time is coming when
anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God"... John
16:2.
Indeed, many Muslims who have converted to Christianity have
paid the price with their very lives.
When I lived in a Muslim country, I spoke with a number of
Muslims about the punishment for apostates. Several educated Muslims
told me that there were Muslim death squads operating in Europe, and that
they were trying to form similar death squads in the USA. One of their
purposes was to murder those who left Islam. While Muslims in the West
would be quick to deny that, or denounce that, Muslims living in the
Mideast support it. When I asked my Muslim friends in the Mideast if
they supported those death squads, they all said yes.
This aspect of Islam portrays one of it's most ugly sides -
i.e. the murder of those who think for themselves. Look today at the
Islamic world, we see it backwards, regressive, and primitive. The poor
people who have grown up into Islam, who have had to adopt this dark
system, are kept in bondage. It is no wonder that their countries
continue to regress since freedom of thought, freedom of creativity,
freedom of expression is stifled. We see the Muslim states falling
further behind the rest of the world in areas like education, science,
and the arts. The more Islamic a state becomes, the farther it
regresses.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
QUESTION
1) What is to be made of a religion that forbids a man to think
and choose for himself? In effect, Islam is a type of religious slavery.
"Leave Islam, and you die".
2) How does this mental bondage affect society, and it's ability
to provide for it's people?
3) Leaving Islam doesn't necessarily mean a person is now at war
with his people. Isn't it possible for a person who is born a Muslim to
serve his country, and do no harm to it's people?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
CONCLUSION
Muhammad taught that apostates are to be murdered, wherever
they are. This death sentence can be carried out wherever these Muslims
are found, either in a Muslim country, or in a non-Muslim country. The
Quran supports this notion, and both the Hadith and Sirat establish this
portion of Islamic law.
apostasy.htm
Rev A: 11-7-97
Articles by Silas
Answering Islam Home Page
lobert
2005-09-08 02:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Ramayah
No wonder Mohd Azahari Zhang was right. Islam is a religion of peace.
Those who disagree has their heads chopped off or put to death
immediately. So no rebellion within Islam or people converting to other
faith. It's one way street.
Peace or pieces.
Those who disagree has their heads chopped into pieces.
i-slam
2005-09-07 15:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well you
know what.
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
THE PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY FROM ISLAM
by Silas
ABSTRACT
During Muhammad's lifetime, and the lifetimes of the next 4
"Rightly Guided Caliphs", a number of Muslims left the faith of Islam.
The punishment for leaving Islam was death. Those that had left the
faith were either killed outright, or were given a few days to turn back
to Islam. If they persisted in leaving Islam they were put to death.
This death sentence is in effect whether or not the apostasy occurred in
an Islamic state or not.
Text inside of [ ] type brackets are my comments. Text inside of ( )
type brackets are from the Hadith itself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
INTRODUCTION
One of the more controversial topics for Muslims in the West
is the punishment for apostasy from Islam. Muslims living in the Mideast
have no problem with the concept of putting apostates to death. But to
Muslims living in the West it is an embarrassing Islamic edict. The West
values freedom of thought and freedom of speech are two virtues that have
never blossomed under Islam. Consequently when asked about the Islamic
law for apostates Muslims in the West hide behind excuses such as "only a
true Islamic state can execute apostates", or "punishment was carried out
because those apostates were threats to the new Islamic state, and it is
not needed anymore".
What exactly was the law during Muhammad's and the Caliph's
time? What were the requirements for a death sentence to be carried out?
Was the sentence only for a short period of time? Was it only to be
administered under a "true Islamic state", or did it apply to anyone who
had left Islam? A close examination of the Quran, Hadith, and Sirat will
show that indeed, the punishment for leaving Islam, either under an
Islamic government, or not, was execution.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
To begin with, the Quran does not come out and explicitly
state that apostates should be murdered. However, there are a number of
Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy, and they shed some light on the
punishment for apostates.
Starting with the Quran.
Sura 9:73,74 -
"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and
deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fire.
They swear by God that they said nothing. Yet they uttered the word of
unbelief and renounced Islam after embracing it. They sought to do what
they could not attain. Yet they had no reason to be spiteful except
perhaps because God and His apostle had enriched them through His bounty.
If they repent, it will indeed be better for them, but if they give no
heed, God will sternly punish them, both in this world and in the world
to come. They shall have none on this earth to protect or help them."
[Dawood]
We see here that Allah urges Muhammad to "make war" on the
people who have left Islam. It also states that "Allah will punish them
in this world, and in the world to come".
What exactly Muhammad was to do to the people in his "making
war" on them is not explicitly stated, but it can be surmised that they
will be physically punished, if not outright killed. Further, Allah
Himself is also going to punish those who leave Islam. What is His
punishment? Whatever it is, is will be unpleasant.
Sura 47:23-28 -
"If you renounced the faith, you would surely do evil in the
land, and violate the ties of blood. Such are those on whom God has laid
His curse, leaving them deaf and sightless.... Those who return to
unbelief after God's guidance has been revealed to them are seduced by
Satan and inspired by him....
Again, God is punishing people, in this world, but the
totality of punishment isn't detailed... other than becoming "deaf and
sightless". No doubt this is spiritual blindness, because millions have
left Islam and have never become physically blind. Note also Muhammad¡¯s
fear and hatred of and toward those that have left Islam ¨C he claims
that they will ¡°do evil in the land and violate the ties of blood.¡±
Perhaps his mistake assumption is his justification for ordering the
killing of apostates.
Additionally one could review Sura 3:86-91 and Sura 16:106.
These verses clearly state that apostates will be punished in hellfire.
However, though it is implied, the punishment meted out while they live
is unclear. Sura 4:137, similarly shows that God will not forgive the
apostates, but no mention of a earthly punishment is made.
Finally, brief mention is made of apostates in 3:72, 5:54,
9:107 but none of these shed any penetrating light on the subject.
QURANIC VERSES SUMMARY
Muhammad is to ¡°make war¡± on them
Allah is going to punish them in this world and in the next
Allah curses them
They will be punished in hellfire
The Dictionary of Quranic Terms and Concepts - page 16,
(written by M. Mir - a Muslim writer), defines the actual Quranic
"APOSTASY
Arabic "irtidad". Traditional Islamic law prescribes the
penalty of death for a Muslim who commits apostasy. The punishment is
not stated in the Quran, but is said to be based on certain Hadith. The
advocates and the opponents of the said penalty have, in their attempt to
find Quranic support for their views, appealed to certain Quranic verses,
but the fact is that none of the arguments offered do full justice to the
Quranic context......"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
THE TEACHINGS OF THE HADITH ON APOSTASY
It is from the Hadith that we draw our understand and
information on the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadith, we find
no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes will be from Bukhari's Hadith,
from the 9 volume English set, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan.
Bukhari, volume 9, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a
Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah
and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in
Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits
illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate)
and leaves the Muslims."
Bukhari, volume 9, #37
"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his
throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather
before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone
except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed
somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who
committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against
Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....
In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reverters from
"The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who
reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn Umar Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A
female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the
obliging of the reverts from Islam to repent Allah said - ....
Following this chapter, a number of Quranic verses are given,
among them are some already mentioned. They are 3:86-89, 3:100, 4:137,
5:54, 16:106-110, 2:217.
Bukhari, volume 9, #57
Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he
burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I
had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger
forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment
(fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's
Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
Bukhari, volume 9, #58
Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a
fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu
Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and hen reverted back to
Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I
will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah
and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that
the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed
the night prayers .....
Bukhari, volume 9, #64
Narrated Ali, "Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's
messenger, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky, than ascribe
a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you,
(not a Hadith), then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just
to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, ¡®During
the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say
the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e.
they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as
an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for
whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.¡¯"
Bukhari, volume 9, #271 [This one is similar to #58]
Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted
back to Judaism. Muadh Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Muadh
asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced
Islam, and then reverted back to Judaism." Muadh said, "I will not sit
down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His
messenger."
Bukhari, Chapter 26, from the Book of Mutual Consultation, page 339,
following Hadith # 461
"The Statement of Allah... 42:32, 3:159, ...The prophet said,
"If someone changes his religion, then kill them....."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
OTHER REFERENCES
FROM THE SIRAT RASULALLAH AND THE KITAB AL-TABAQAT AL-KABIR
After Muhammad took Mecca, he order a number of people to be
killed. Several of them were apostates. Here is the background.
Muhammad ordered the execution of 10 people when he took
Mecca. Here is the list of names found in Ibn Sa'd "Tabaqat".
The quote is from the Tabaqat, Vol. 2, page 168.
"The apostle of Allah entered through Adhakhir, [into Mecca],
and prohibited fighting. He ordered six men and four women to be killed,
they were (1) Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl, (2) Habbar Ibn al-Aswad, (3) Abd
Allah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh, (4) Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi, (5) al-
Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh, (6) Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami, (7)
Hind Bint Utbah, (8) Sarah, the mawlat (enfranchised girl) of Amr Ibn
Hashim, (9) Fartana and (10) Qaribah.
THE SIRAT RASULALLAH GIVES SOME DETAILS BEHIND THE LIST OF NAMES
The information below corresponds to # 3 on the list.
"The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered
Mecca only to fight those who resisted them, except a small number who
were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the
Kaba. Among them was Abdullah Sa'd, brother of the B. Amir Luayy. The
reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used
to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Quraysh
[Mecca] and fled to Uthman Affan whose foster brother he was. The latter
hid him until he brought him to the apostle after the situation in Mecca
was tranquil, and asked that he might be granted immunity. They allege
that the apostle remained silent for a long time till finally he
[Muhammad] said yes [granting Abdullah immunity from the execution
order].
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
ANALYSIS
We find that although a severe physical punishment is
mentioned in the Quran, we are not told what that punishment is.
However, we find in Bukhari's Hadith, that the punishment is death.
There is no ambiguity about this. Muhammad clearly taught that apostates
are to be put to death.
Further, we find in contrast to what many Muslim apologists
assert, that these apostates are to be killed wherever they are as per
Bukhari, vol. 9, #64.
"So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills
them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
We see from this that Muslims are instructed to kill
apostates. Further, those who commit the murder, will get a reward in
heaven.
Tying into this, we find from both Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Hisham,
that those who had apostatized prior to the incorporation of an Islamic
state in Mecca, were ordered to be executed. These people were Muslims
living in Medina, and later left Islam. When Muhammad was able to order
their deaths, he did so. These people would correspond to Muslims living
in the West, who left Islam. Following the Sunnah, these Muslims are
already under a death sentence. It would not be against Islamic law for
Muslims to murder these ex-Muslims. If anything, they would have a
reward waiting for them in heaven.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
DISCUSSION
I am reminded of Jesus words, "In fact a time is coming when
anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God"... John
16:2.
Indeed, many Muslims who have converted to Christianity have
paid the price with their very lives.
When I lived in a Muslim country, I spoke with a number of
Muslims about the punishment for apostates. Several educated Muslims
told me that there were Muslim death squads operating in Europe, and that
they were trying to form similar death squads in the USA. One of their
purposes was to murder those who left Islam. While Muslims in the West
would be quick to deny that, or denounce that, Muslims living in the
Mideast support it. When I asked my Muslim friends in the Mideast if
they supported those death squads, they all said yes.
This aspect of Islam portrays one of it's most ugly sides -
i.e. the murder of those who think for themselves. Look today at the
Islamic world, we see it backwards, regressive, and primitive. The poor
people who have grown up into Islam, who have had to adopt this dark
system, are kept in bondage. It is no wonder that their countries
continue to regress since freedom of thought, freedom of creativity,
freedom of expression is stifled. We see the Muslim states falling
further behind the rest of the world in areas like education, science,
and the arts. The more Islamic a state becomes, the farther it
regresses.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
QUESTION
1) What is to be made of a religion that forbids a man to think
and choose for himself? In effect, Islam is a type of religious slavery.
"Leave Islam, and you die".
2) How does this mental bondage affect society, and it's ability
to provide for it's people?
3) Leaving Islam doesn't necessarily mean a person is now at war
with his people. Isn't it possible for a person who is born a Muslim to
serve his country, and do no harm to it's people?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
CONCLUSION
Muhammad taught that apostates are to be murdered, wherever
they are. This death sentence can be carried out wherever these Muslims
are found, either in a Muslim country, or in a non-Muslim country. The
Quran supports this notion, and both the Hadith and Sirat establish this
portion of Islamic law.
apostasy.htm
Rev A: 11-7-97
Articles by Silas
Answering Islam Home Page
w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
2005-09-08 10:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well you
know what.
Really? Where's your proof?

Perhaps they can answer for themselves better at:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html


Who is (behind) "Answering Islam" ?

Many people send us emails asking who we are, what are our qualifications
to speak on Islam, what is our statement of faith, etc.

Some say, that they love our site, and would like to recommend it to
others, but cannot do so before they know who we are and what exactly we
believe.

If you are one who seeks answers to these questions, we would like to ask
you: What would you need these answers for? Why is the (usually
acknowledged) quality of our material not enough for you?

We have no desire that people believe our arguments just because some
respectable names of persons, organizations or churches are attached to
the site. Often the question comes from Christians who want to be sure,
we are evangelical Christians, before they can trust or recommend us.

We do not want Christians (or anyone else) to believe what we write is
correct just because we claim to be evangelical, or because we can tout
some academic titles to the names of our authors, but because the
arguments are biblical, well documented, and logically sound.

The Bible praises these critical believers:

Now, the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11

The Bereans believed not because it was Paul, the honored apostle, nor
because he could claim the endorsement of the Jerusalem Apostolic
Council, but because they examined his arguments themselves to find
whether they were scriptural and true.

Let our readers be Bereans. We want that Muslims come to faith because
they become convinced of the truth of the Gospel through the soundness of
the material we present, and we want our Christian brothers and sisters
to develop their convictions about their own faith and about Islam for
the same reasons: Because it is true.

The sad thing is, not everything that evangelical Christians write about
Islam is true (not even everything they write about the Bible and the
Christian faith). We would not doubt their Christian faith, but we cannot
agree with their statements about Islam. We cannot recommend their
writings just because they are Evangelicals, and¡ªto remain
consistent¡ªwe do not want others to believe us, just because we wear
that label.

The same holds for the question of academic qualifications. Some of our
authors are teaching Theology, Religious Studies or even Islamic Studies
at Universities. But there are too many professors of Islamic Studies who
spread false information about Islam, while some self-taught laymen have
a much deeper understanding. Evaluate the quality of our writings for
yourself, and do not fall into the fallacy of appeal to authority.

This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization.

May the Lord God bless you and guide you as you seek to know Him and His
Truth.

Your Answering Islam team

Related issues:

# Reasons for anonymity of some authors of books and articles on
Answering Islam
# The name of your web site is deceptive!
# Some Muslim ideas of who we are.

Answering Islam Home Page
i-slam
2005-09-08 10:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well you
know what.
Really? Where's your proof?
http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html
You want proof?

you go to the url you provided above
(http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html) and scroll down.

and you will see this:

"This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization. "
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Who is (behind) "Answering Islam" ?
Many people send us emails asking who we are, what are our qualifications
to speak on Islam, what is our statement of faith, etc.
Some say, that they love our site, and would like to recommend it to
others, but cannot do so before they know who we are and what exactly we
believe.
If you are one who seeks answers to these questions, we would like to ask
you: What would you need these answers for? Why is the (usually
acknowledged) quality of our material not enough for you?
We have no desire that people believe our arguments just because some
respectable names of persons, organizations or churches are attached to
the site. Often the question comes from Christians who want to be sure,
we are evangelical Christians, before they can trust or recommend us.
We do not want Christians (or anyone else) to believe what we write is
correct just because we claim to be evangelical, or because we can tout
some academic titles to the names of our authors, but because the
arguments are biblical, well documented, and logically sound.
Now, the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11
The Bereans believed not because it was Paul, the honored apostle, nor
because he could claim the endorsement of the Jerusalem Apostolic
Council, but because they examined his arguments themselves to find
whether they were scriptural and true.
Let our readers be Bereans. We want that Muslims come to faith because
they become convinced of the truth of the Gospel through the soundness of
the material we present, and we want our Christian brothers and sisters
to develop their convictions about their own faith and about Islam for
the same reasons: Because it is true.
The sad thing is, not everything that evangelical Christians write about
Islam is true (not even everything they write about the Bible and the
Christian faith). We would not doubt their Christian faith, but we cannot
agree with their statements about Islam. We cannot recommend their
writings just because they are Evangelicals, and¡ªto remain
consistent¡ªwe do not want others to believe us, just because we wear
that label.
The same holds for the question of academic qualifications. Some of our
authors are teaching Theology, Religious Studies or even Islamic Studies
at Universities. But there are too many professors of Islamic Studies who
spread false information about Islam, while some self-taught laymen have
a much deeper understanding. Evaluate the quality of our writings for
yourself, and do not fall into the fallacy of appeal to authority.
This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization.
May the Lord God bless you and guide you as you seek to know Him and His
Truth.
Your Answering Islam team
# Reasons for anonymity of some authors of books and articles on
Answering Islam
# The name of your web site is deceptive!
# Some Muslim ideas of who we are.
Answering Islam Home Page
picah
2005-09-08 11:10:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well you
know what.
Really? Where's your proof?
http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html
You want proof?
you go to the url you provided above
(http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html) and scroll down.
"This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization. "
kekeke.. let's see how he will try to weasel out of this. you can join
your friend observer in humiliation. ask him for tips on how to
bullshit your way out.
w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
2005-09-12 13:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by picah
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well you
know what.
Really? Where's your proof?
http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html
You want proof?
you go to the url you provided above
(http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html) and scroll down.
"This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization. "
kekeke.. let's see how he will try to weasel out of this. you can join
your friend observer in humiliation. ask him for tips on how to
bullshit your way out.
That's b'cos no Muslim want to admit their idiotic believes and their
curses.

That's b'cos no Muslim want to openly bring up the subject on the right
to choose their beliefs.

That's b'cos no Muslim want to admit that many of their smarter brothers
are leaving Islam.

For those who continue to embrace Islam blindly today, that's b'cos they
bo chee to face the truth of their own F'tup beliefs.

I am happy that in such a world, there are those who continue in their
own blind faith like you without critical thinking. Make me feel much
more intelligent.
picah
2005-09-12 13:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by picah
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well
you
Post by picah
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
know what.
Really? Where's your proof?
http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html
You want proof?
you go to the url you provided above
(http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html) and scroll down.
"This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization. "
kekeke.. let's see how he will try to weasel out of this. you can join
your friend observer in humiliation. ask him for tips on how to
bullshit your way out.
That's b'cos no Muslim want to admit their idiotic believes and their
curses.
That's b'cos no Muslim want to openly bring up the subject on the right
to choose their beliefs.
That's b'cos no Muslim want to admit that many of their smarter brothers
are leaving Islam.
how about because those particular christians want to give muslims a bad
name and that you're anti muslim?
w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
2005-09-12 13:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well
you know what.
Really? Where's your proof?
http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html
You want proof?
you go to the url you provided above
(http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html) and scroll down.
"This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization. "
And what was their intention?
picah
2005-09-12 13:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well
you know what.
Really? Where's your proof?
http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html
You want proof?
you go to the url you provided above
(http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html) and scroll down.
"This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization. "
And what was their intention?
If they bought a misleading domain name and have managed to mislead you,
what do you think their intention is?
w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
2005-09-12 13:18:46 UTC
Permalink
You know...I really like that Afghan guy in Discovery Channel.
He's a muslim. And what his family is in today as a cave dweller with no
home, he commented cooly "Those bastard Taliban....they destroyed it
all."

At least he knows who's helping and who's destroying.
He shows more intelligence than some muslims bigots here.

You proved nothing. Not one of your muslim website talks abt the
consequence of a muslim renoucing Islam. Yet the truth belies that many
more are leaving Islam.
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well
you know what.
Really? Where's your proof?
http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html
You want proof?
you go to the url you provided above
(http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html) and scroll down.
"This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization. "
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Who is (behind) "Answering Islam" ?
Many people send us emails asking who we are, what are our
qualifications to speak on Islam, what is our statement of faith,
etc.
Some say, that they love our site, and would like to recommend it to
others, but cannot do so before they know who we are and what exactly
we believe.
If you are one who seeks answers to these questions, we would like to
ask you: What would you need these answers for? Why is the (usually
acknowledged) quality of our material not enough for you?
We have no desire that people believe our arguments just because some
respectable names of persons, organizations or churches are attached
to the site. Often the question comes from Christians who want to be
sure, we are evangelical Christians, before they can trust or
recommend us.
We do not want Christians (or anyone else) to believe what we write
is correct just because we claim to be evangelical, or because we can
tout some academic titles to the names of our authors, but because
the arguments are biblical, well documented, and logically sound.
Now, the Bereans were of more noble character than the
Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11
The Bereans believed not because it was Paul, the honored apostle,
nor because he could claim the endorsement of the Jerusalem Apostolic
Council, but because they examined his arguments themselves to find
whether they were scriptural and true.
Let our readers be Bereans. We want that Muslims come to faith
because they become convinced of the truth of the Gospel through the
soundness of the material we present, and we want our Christian
brothers and sisters to develop their convictions about their own
faith and about Islam for the same reasons: Because it is true.
The sad thing is, not everything that evangelical Christians write
about Islam is true (not even everything they write about the Bible
and the Christian faith). We would not doubt their Christian faith,
but we cannot agree with their statements about Islam. We cannot
recommend their writings just because they are Evangelicals, and¡ªto
remain consistent¡ªwe do not want others to believe us, just because
we wear that label.
The same holds for the question of academic qualifications. Some of
our authors are teaching Theology, Religious Studies or even Islamic
Studies at Universities. But there are too many professors of Islamic
Studies who spread false information about Islam, while some
self-taught laymen have a much deeper understanding. Evaluate the
quality of our writings for yourself, and do not fall into the
fallacy of appeal to authority.
This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by
the World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization.
May the Lord God bless you and guide you as you seek to know Him and
His Truth.
Your Answering Islam team
# Reasons for anonymity of some authors of books and articles on
Answering Islam
# The name of your web site is deceptive!
# Some Muslim ideas of who we are.
Answering Islam Home Page
picah
2005-09-12 13:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
You proved nothing.
It's proven that you thought the website is created by muslim when in
fact it is created by evangelical christians.
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Post by i-slam
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
This website belongs to non muslims with the sole intent of...well
you know what.
Really? Where's your proof?
http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html
You want proof?
you go to the url you provided above
(http://answering-islam.org.uk/about.html) and scroll down.
"This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the
World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization. "
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
Who is (behind) "Answering Islam" ?
Many people send us emails asking who we are, what are our
qualifications to speak on Islam, what is our statement of faith,
etc.
Some say, that they love our site, and would like to recommend it to
others, but cannot do so before they know who we are and what exactly
we believe.
If you are one who seeks answers to these questions, we would like to
ask you: What would you need these answers for? Why is the (usually
acknowledged) quality of our material not enough for you?
We have no desire that people believe our arguments just because some
respectable names of persons, organizations or churches are attached
to the site. Often the question comes from Christians who want to be
sure, we are evangelical Christians, before they can trust or
recommend us.
We do not want Christians (or anyone else) to believe what we write
is correct just because we claim to be evangelical, or because we can
tout some academic titles to the names of our authors, but because
the arguments are biblical, well documented, and logically sound.
Now, the Bereans were of more noble character than the
Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11
The Bereans believed not because it was Paul, the honored apostle,
nor because he could claim the endorsement of the Jerusalem Apostolic
Council, but because they examined his arguments themselves to find
whether they were scriptural and true.
Let our readers be Bereans. We want that Muslims come to faith
because they become convinced of the truth of the Gospel through the
soundness of the material we present, and we want our Christian
brothers and sisters to develop their convictions about their own
faith and about Islam for the same reasons: Because it is true.
The sad thing is, not everything that evangelical Christians write
about Islam is true (not even everything they write about the Bible
and the Christian faith). We would not doubt their Christian faith,
but we cannot agree with their statements about Islam. We cannot
recommend their writings just because they are Evangelicals, and¡ªto
remain consistent¡ªwe do not want others to believe us, just because
we wear that label.
The same holds for the question of academic qualifications. Some of
our authors are teaching Theology, Religious Studies or even Islamic
Studies at Universities. But there are too many professors of Islamic
Studies who spread false information about Islam, while some
self-taught laymen have a much deeper understanding. Evaluate the
quality of our writings for yourself, and do not fall into the
fallacy of appeal to authority.
This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without
reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by
the World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World
Evangelization.
May the Lord God bless you and guide you as you seek to know Him and
His Truth.
Your Answering Islam team
# Reasons for anonymity of some authors of books and articles on
Answering Islam
# The name of your web site is deceptive!
# Some Muslim ideas of who we are.
Answering Islam Home Page
q***@norge.freeshell.org
2005-09-17 00:45:37 UTC
Permalink
The site's name is answering-islam, i.e., answering claims of Islam.
You mean you thought it was "answering for Islam"? And you know there
is another site called answering-christianity. Guess what, it's run by
Muslims.

culprit
2005-09-07 20:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
THE PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY FROM ISLAM
in the Christian Old Testament, people were executed for following any other
religion or sacrificing to any other god. for entering a temple you weren't
known to. for speaking curses. for practicing birth control. for
practicing adultery. for incest. for pre-marital sex. for being seduced
if you're engaged. for committing murder, but not murder of slave. for
kidnapping. for cursing parents. for abusing or hitting your parents. for
carelessly harming an animal. for stubbornness or rebellion. for working
on Saturday. for perjury. for being uncirmcised. for manufacturing
anointing oil. for having sex with a woman who is menstruating. for
gluttony and excessive drinking. for being excessively curious.

sounds like Christianity is also a religion of peace!

-kelly
Charles
2005-09-07 20:06:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by culprit
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
THE PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY FROM ISLAM
in the Christian Old Testament, people were executed for following any other
religion or sacrificing to any other god. for entering a temple you weren't
known to. for speaking curses. for practicing birth control. for
practicing adultery. for incest. for pre-marital sex. for being seduced
if you're engaged. for committing murder, but not murder of slave. for
kidnapping. for cursing parents. for abusing or hitting your parents. for
carelessly harming an animal. for stubbornness or rebellion. for working
on Saturday. for perjury. for being uncirmcised. for manufacturing
anointing oil. for having sex with a woman who is menstruating. for
gluttony and excessive drinking. for being excessively curious.
sounds like Christianity is also a religion of peace!
-kelly
There weren't any christians durring the times of the old testament.

One story is that Christianity removed those requirements to produce a
kinder society. Hasn't always worked that way, but your argument is
specious.
culprit
2005-09-07 20:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles
There weren't any christians durring the times of the old testament.
One story is that Christianity removed those requirements to produce a
kinder society. Hasn't always worked that way, but your argument is
specious.
the requirements still exist in the Christian holy book as law. if they
were removed, why not remove them from the Bible?

-kelly
Charles
2005-09-07 22:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by culprit
Post by Charles
There weren't any christians durring the times of the old testament.
One story is that Christianity removed those requirements to produce a
kinder society. Hasn't always worked that way, but your argument is
specious.
the requirements still exist in the Christian holy book as law. if they
were removed, why not remove them from the Bible?
-kelly
History lesson, shows where things were and how they changed.
culprit
2005-09-07 23:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles
History lesson, shows where things were and how they changed.
perhaps the same applies to Islam? :-) picking bits and pieces out of
centuries old holy texts can hardly be used to describe an entire religion.

-kelly
Charles
2005-09-07 23:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by culprit
Post by Charles
History lesson, shows where things were and how they changed.
perhaps the same applies to Islam? :-) picking bits and pieces out of
centuries old holy texts can hardly be used to describe an entire religion.
-kelly
Yep, Only current practice applies. I don't think any religion can
claim to be perfect, they all have followers that don't live up to
what I consider the best principles. Of course, I don't either.
TouchB4Entry
2005-09-08 00:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles
Post by culprit
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
THE PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY FROM ISLAM
in the Christian Old Testament, people were executed for following any other
religion or sacrificing to any other god. for entering a temple you weren't
known to. for speaking curses. for practicing birth control. for
practicing adultery. for incest. for pre-marital sex. for being seduced
if you're engaged. for committing murder, but not murder of slave. for
kidnapping. for cursing parents. for abusing or hitting your parents.
for
Post by Charles
Post by culprit
carelessly harming an animal. for stubbornness or rebellion. for working
on Saturday. for perjury. for being uncirmcised. for manufacturing
anointing oil. for having sex with a woman who is menstruating. for
gluttony and excessive drinking. for being excessively curious.
sounds like Christianity is also a religion of peace!
-kelly
There weren't any christians durring the times of the old testament.
One story is that Christianity removed those requirements to produce a
kinder society. Hasn't always worked that way, but your argument is
specious.
It is still practiced by some. My bro-in-law(a Christian) refuses to go into
a temple. My friend (a Muslim) oso refuses to go into a temple.

ME, the world is my home. I can go anywhere if allowed to, no restrictions
whatsoever if given permission or not restricted by some law.
I am not allowed to go into Israel (as stated in my passport), so I cannot
go there.
w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
2005-09-12 13:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by culprit
Post by Charles
Post by culprit
Post by w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/apostasy.htm
THE PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY FROM ISLAM
in the Christian Old Testament, people were executed for following
any
other
Post by Charles
Post by culprit
religion or sacrificing to any other god. for entering a temple you
weren't
Post by Charles
Post by culprit
known to. for speaking curses. for practicing birth control. for
practicing adultery. for incest. for pre-marital sex. for being
seduced
Post by Charles
Post by culprit
if you're engaged. for committing murder, but not murder of slave.
for kidnapping. for cursing parents. for abusing or hitting your
parents.
for
Post by Charles
Post by culprit
carelessly harming an animal. for stubbornness or rebellion. for
working
Post by Charles
Post by culprit
on Saturday. for perjury. for being uncirmcised. for
manufacturing anointing oil. for having sex with a woman who is
menstruating. for gluttony and excessive drinking. for being
excessively curious.
sounds like Christianity is also a religion of peace!
-kelly
There weren't any christians durring the times of the old testament.
One story is that Christianity removed those requirements to produce
a kinder society. Hasn't always worked that way, but your argument
is specious.
It is still practiced by some. My bro-in-law(a Christian) refuses to
go into a temple. My friend (a Muslim) oso refuses to go into a
temple.
ME, the world is my home. I can go anywhere if allowed to, no
restrictions whatsoever if given permission or not restricted by some
law. I am not allowed to go into Israel (as stated in my passport), so
I cannot go there.
Good for you. At least you know you're still human. You can't go Israel
not b'cos you dun want to, yah?
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...