Discussion:
SM Lee's meeting with the pilots at Istana
(too old to reply)
XiaoMei
2004-02-29 16:47:23 UTC
Permalink
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.

---
SM's meeting with pilots: What happened at the Istana

ST 29/2/2004

By Zuraidah Ibrahim

'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you.' -- SM Lee Kuan Yew

AS THE guests stepped into the pristine hallways of the Istana last Thursday
afternoon, it was clear from their expectant faces that they were not there
on one of those routine diplomatic goodwill visits.

This was no courtesy call.

The 14 Singapore Airlines pilots - a carefully selected mix of unionists
ousted from leadership last November and their successors - were first
ushered into a drawing room.

Some sat armed with files. Others waited with folded arms. Eventually, they
were shepherded up to the chandelier-draped Sheares Room. Several paused at
the bottom of the stairs, staring curiously through glass doors into a
roomful of journalists.

Upstairs, they were about to face the man who had served them a series of
public rebukes over the past few months.

He was after 'the principals and the ringleaders' behind the ouster of the
union leadership, he had said.

'If they play this game, there will be broken heads,' he said on another
occasion.

'Think carefully,' he cautioned them later, suspecting that the pilots were
on a collision course with management.

That Thursday afternoon, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew began with an
explanation.

'I decided to take up this issue since I've been involved with Singapore
Airlines from the start,' he said.

In case the pilots needed reminding, he pointed out that it was he who had
secured the pact for SIA's first and most lucrative route then to London. It
was he who had asked for Changi to be built, despite expert studies
favouring Paya Lebar. It was he who had seen the airline through its
turbulent early years.

'So,' he said, 'I have no intention for it to go down'.

If the pilots had anticipated facing an uncompromising force, they were
right.

But if they had feared that this determination would extend to siding
completely with SIA's management, they were wrong.

Instead, he gave his word, several times, that SIA management would be put
right.

'There will be no sacred cows,' he said, meaning this clearing of the way of
past agreements and positions would probably apply equally to the union as
it would to management.

In the two-hour exchange that followed, he also gave them a tutorial on
industrial relations, what it meant to be an effective union, and the
importance of non-confrontational, cooperative labour-management relations
within Singapore's formula for success.

He came to power on the back of union support, he recounted to those in need
of a history lesson. As a lawyer new to politics, he had done work for
unions for free. His pro-union credentials were as unimpeachable as his
pro-business record, he appeared to be saying.

But what he could not countenance was an adversarial relationship that could
bring Singapore down.

Thus, he reasoned with the delegation, to win their minds rather than break
their heads.

First, however, there was a reading of the riot act to one Captain Ryan Goh.

The master politician was at work.

You were the prime mover, were you not, behind the machinations to vote
against the union leadership, he asked.

This, even though you were on the very council of the Air Line Pilots
Association-Singapore (Alpa-S)?

That fateful ouster was what had brought the pilots that afternoon to the
Istana.

Alpa-S - which guards jealously its status as an independent union that
stays out of the tripartite loop - booted out its leaders after rueing the
wage cuts that they had accepted and members had earlier endorsed.

The pilots agreed to the lower pay during the Sars outbreak when the airline
was bleeding. But after it made a stunning turnaround a quarter later, a
whispering campaign began about the union being weak. The larger battle
ahead - negotiating a new collective agreement then in its last days -
needed stronger stomachs, the sentiment went.

Reading from a file, Mr Lee pulled out the following facts about Captain
Goh.

A Malaysian with permanent residence status here, he had accepted Australian
PR in 2002, moved his wife and children to Perth, shipped his car and sold
his flat.

You told someone from IE Singapore that the grass had stopped growing in
Singapore, did you not, he asked.

He turned to one of the pilots and asked if he knew the Malaysian had bought
a house in Australia and had this option to bail out.

No, the person answered.

'No?' repeated Mr Lee.

'That's deception, isn't it?' he asked Capt Goh.

The pilot in the hot seat tried to defend himself but it was too late. The
line in the sand between him and the Singaporeans had been drawn for him.

'My daughter is still in school here,' he tried saying, adding this showed
he still had roots in Singapore.

But wasn't that because she did not like school in Australia and came back,
Mr Lee shot back calmly.

Silence.

The castigation, no doubt a tactic of divide-and-rule, also established a
more significant point: It is not up to PRs or other foreigners to get into
union matters and play around with decisions that affect the rest of
Singaporeans.

Capt Goh had tried to undermine the interests of SIA and Singapore, he said.
'If Singapore goes down, you go down,' he told the Singaporeans across the
table. 'He doesn't go down.'

With that out of the way, he laid out what he wanted to achieve out of the
meeting: a fresh start.

'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you,' he told them.

'Tell me whether we can cooperate.'

Yes, they could tell him one thing and act another way, but he was not
interested in that.

'I don't hold you to blame for everything. Nor is the management responsible
for all the things that have gone wrong. 'I want to create a new partnership
of trust and cooperation, not confrontation,' he said.

The pilots needed to understand what was at stake. When members ousted their
leaders, their actions jarred and suggested they were clueless about the
environment they operated in: An economy on the remake trying to ease its
cost pressures and an aviation industry that will be forever changed by the
wringer it went through these last few years.

SIA did not need hostile industrial relations that would weigh it down at a
time when the connectivity that the airline and Changi provided was facing
intense competition. Without that connectivity that other parts of the
economy were premised upon, Singapore would suffer.

'So it puzzles me. Pilots are intelligent people. How is it you are out of
touch?' he asked rhetorically.

It was partly because, someone had told him, he said, pilots were out of the
country half the time. Partly also, they were out of the know because they
were not under the National Trades Union Congress, which would have kept
members apprised of the slightest twitch of its trouble-on-the-horizon
barometer.

Whatever the case, he set the parameters for future moves.

All National Wages Council recommendations must be accepted if the airline
was to achieve flexibility and nimbleness to outlast the competition.

Wages would have to be as variable as possible. Profit-sharing must factor
in return on capital. Retrenchment benefits must be capped at 25 years.
Medical benefits would no longer be fully paid for, a bitter pill almost all
Singaporean workers have already swallowed, some as far back as a decade
ago.

But all these changes did not mean the pilots were being sold down the
river. They will be paid market rates and when there are extras, they will
get more, he explained.

'Now, I want to hear what you have to say,' he said after an hour.

Over the next, the pilots vented their grievances, imploring for
understanding.

Captain Mok Hin Choon, the new president of Alpa-S, said the company had to
reflect and see if it could bring along its people, pointing out that even
its NTUC-related unions were unhappy.

'Trust has been missing for the last few years,' he said, adding that 'it
takes two hands to clap'.

Out of the bag leapt their biggest bugbear - the overseas-based pilots. The
company kept rebuffing their proposals to relook the scheme which they said
was inefficient, wasteful and resulted in rostering that left them with
scraps while their overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes.

Flight operations was in charge, came the reply, when Mr Lee asked who was
behind it all if they were right about the matter.

'If all this is true, then the flight operations must be blind or stupid!
... I want an explanation from them because I cannot believe this,' he said.

'You give me a paper, I will look at it.'

He promised the human resources of the airline would be revamped and urged
the pilots to give new chief executive officer Chew Choon Seng a chance.

As trust was rebuilt, there should be more information sharing so both sides
could work together.

They told him 38 pilots had left in recent months. Where were they going, he
wanted to know.

There will be changes, he said.

'I am assuring you that the Government will make sure that SIA acts in good
faith,' he said.

Mr Lee went on to answer one of the main questions on the minds of
Singaporeans: Why did the Government need to intervene in an internal
company matter? 'We are the majority owners and we will ensure that they act
in the interest of the country, and the interest of the country requires
cooperation, trust and confidence from the unions.'

Why did it have to be the Senior Minister?

As he explained it, he had dealt with the airline from the beginning, it was
fair he saw to it that the restive relationship between the pilots in the
early years still continuing today, end.

But he was also realistic enough to concede this much: The residual feelings
of suspicion would still be there.

Capt Mok too made this plain enough when he told the media later Alpa-S was
not ready to embrace NTUC.

But yes, he and the others pledged to work on a clean slate, work in
partnership with management and give things a go. They would use the
negotiations for the new collective agreement as a time for trust-building.

By the end of it, it felt as if the fog of suspicion that had settled
between Government and Alpa-S these past months had a good chance of
lifting.

As the press walked in at the tail end of the meeting and posed questions,
Captain Mok insisted on looking forward, vowing to make a clean start.

Details of difficulties with management? No, he wasn't keen on hitting the
headlines with that.

Details of demands? No, not keen either.

Management should thank him for closing the books thus.

The meeting ended with handshakes all around, even with the solemn-looking
Capt Goh.

If there was any sense of deja vu in the room, Captain Freddie Koh must have
felt it most.

He was among a posse of union pilots Mr Lee summoned to the Istana in 1980
for daring to fan a go-slow action to vent their disgruntlement over pay and
work conditions.

He told them then in unvarnished language: 'I do not want to do you in but I
will not let anyone do Singapore in.'

When trouble with Alpa-S began, Mr Lee said he wanted to clean up on the
restiveness that was resurfacing. 'This is a job that has to be finished and
I'll finish it.'

Thursday afternoon moved towards that conclusion.

Looking back, throughout it all, the Senior Minister in effect employed the
familiar strategy of good cop, bad cop. Except that he played both roles.

Now that he and the Government have said their piece and the pilots have
made peace, SIA needs to break its deafening silence. Soon.
Ethical Egoist
2004-02-29 17:52:27 UTC
Permalink
I think Capt. Goh should answer like this to sm, that sm and family too have
houses and lands in australia and when the country goes down will he raise
from your grave and will his family stay? Also, I think he is much concern
of the 38 pilots that have left, otherwise he wouldn't have conducted the
meeting, although he gave much excuses about why an sm was involved in such
matters. Noticed, he doesn't really know why pilots were unhappy, such as
"overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes", his years in
politics delude his mind that everyone is out to bring down his country or
his wealth making machine.

Finally, such meetings are usually one sided, I think Capt. Mok by now
should feel after the meeting that he have got nothing out of it and maybe
made a ass or a publicity out of his expense and made sm look more popular
that he is willing to listen. There is a term in this in psychology and it
is call "Tragedy of the Commons". I think Capt. Koh did felt the deja vu
there.
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
---
SM's meeting with pilots: What happened at the Istana
ST 29/2/2004
By Zuraidah Ibrahim
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you.' -- SM Lee Kuan Yew
AS THE guests stepped into the pristine hallways of the Istana last Thursday
afternoon, it was clear from their expectant faces that they were not there
on one of those routine diplomatic goodwill visits.
This was no courtesy call.
The 14 Singapore Airlines pilots - a carefully selected mix of unionists
ousted from leadership last November and their successors - were first
ushered into a drawing room.
Some sat armed with files. Others waited with folded arms. Eventually, they
were shepherded up to the chandelier-draped Sheares Room. Several paused at
the bottom of the stairs, staring curiously through glass doors into a
roomful of journalists.
Upstairs, they were about to face the man who had served them a series of
public rebukes over the past few months.
He was after 'the principals and the ringleaders' behind the ouster of the
union leadership, he had said.
'If they play this game, there will be broken heads,' he said on another
occasion.
'Think carefully,' he cautioned them later, suspecting that the pilots were
on a collision course with management.
That Thursday afternoon, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew began with an
explanation.
'I decided to take up this issue since I've been involved with Singapore
Airlines from the start,' he said.
In case the pilots needed reminding, he pointed out that it was he who had
secured the pact for SIA's first and most lucrative route then to London. It
was he who had asked for Changi to be built, despite expert studies
favouring Paya Lebar. It was he who had seen the airline through its
turbulent early years.
'So,' he said, 'I have no intention for it to go down'.
If the pilots had anticipated facing an uncompromising force, they were
right.
But if they had feared that this determination would extend to siding
completely with SIA's management, they were wrong.
Instead, he gave his word, several times, that SIA management would be put
right.
'There will be no sacred cows,' he said, meaning this clearing of the way of
past agreements and positions would probably apply equally to the union as
it would to management.
In the two-hour exchange that followed, he also gave them a tutorial on
industrial relations, what it meant to be an effective union, and the
importance of non-confrontational, cooperative labour-management relations
within Singapore's formula for success.
He came to power on the back of union support, he recounted to those in need
of a history lesson. As a lawyer new to politics, he had done work for
unions for free. His pro-union credentials were as unimpeachable as his
pro-business record, he appeared to be saying.
But what he could not countenance was an adversarial relationship that could
bring Singapore down.
Thus, he reasoned with the delegation, to win their minds rather than break
their heads.
First, however, there was a reading of the riot act to one Captain Ryan Goh.
The master politician was at work.
You were the prime mover, were you not, behind the machinations to vote
against the union leadership, he asked.
This, even though you were on the very council of the Air Line Pilots
Association-Singapore (Alpa-S)?
That fateful ouster was what had brought the pilots that afternoon to the
Istana.
Alpa-S - which guards jealously its status as an independent union that
stays out of the tripartite loop - booted out its leaders after rueing the
wage cuts that they had accepted and members had earlier endorsed.
The pilots agreed to the lower pay during the Sars outbreak when the airline
was bleeding. But after it made a stunning turnaround a quarter later, a
whispering campaign began about the union being weak. The larger battle
ahead - negotiating a new collective agreement then in its last days -
needed stronger stomachs, the sentiment went.
Reading from a file, Mr Lee pulled out the following facts about Captain
Goh.
A Malaysian with permanent residence status here, he had accepted Australian
PR in 2002, moved his wife and children to Perth, shipped his car and sold
his flat.
You told someone from IE Singapore that the grass had stopped growing in
Singapore, did you not, he asked.
He turned to one of the pilots and asked if he knew the Malaysian had bought
a house in Australia and had this option to bail out.
No, the person answered.
'No?' repeated Mr Lee.
'That's deception, isn't it?' he asked Capt Goh.
The pilot in the hot seat tried to defend himself but it was too late. The
line in the sand between him and the Singaporeans had been drawn for him.
'My daughter is still in school here,' he tried saying, adding this showed
he still had roots in Singapore.
But wasn't that because she did not like school in Australia and came back,
Mr Lee shot back calmly.
Silence.
The castigation, no doubt a tactic of divide-and-rule, also established a
more significant point: It is not up to PRs or other foreigners to get into
union matters and play around with decisions that affect the rest of
Singaporeans.
Capt Goh had tried to undermine the interests of SIA and Singapore, he said.
'If Singapore goes down, you go down,' he told the Singaporeans across the
table. 'He doesn't go down.'
With that out of the way, he laid out what he wanted to achieve out of the
meeting: a fresh start.
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you,' he told them.
'Tell me whether we can cooperate.'
Yes, they could tell him one thing and act another way, but he was not
interested in that.
'I don't hold you to blame for everything. Nor is the management responsible
for all the things that have gone wrong. 'I want to create a new partnership
of trust and cooperation, not confrontation,' he said.
The pilots needed to understand what was at stake. When members ousted their
leaders, their actions jarred and suggested they were clueless about the
environment they operated in: An economy on the remake trying to ease its
cost pressures and an aviation industry that will be forever changed by the
wringer it went through these last few years.
SIA did not need hostile industrial relations that would weigh it down at a
time when the connectivity that the airline and Changi provided was facing
intense competition. Without that connectivity that other parts of the
economy were premised upon, Singapore would suffer.
'So it puzzles me. Pilots are intelligent people. How is it you are out of
touch?' he asked rhetorically.
It was partly because, someone had told him, he said, pilots were out of the
country half the time. Partly also, they were out of the know because they
were not under the National Trades Union Congress, which would have kept
members apprised of the slightest twitch of its trouble-on-the-horizon
barometer.
Whatever the case, he set the parameters for future moves.
All National Wages Council recommendations must be accepted if the airline
was to achieve flexibility and nimbleness to outlast the competition.
Wages would have to be as variable as possible. Profit-sharing must factor
in return on capital. Retrenchment benefits must be capped at 25 years.
Medical benefits would no longer be fully paid for, a bitter pill almost all
Singaporean workers have already swallowed, some as far back as a decade
ago.
But all these changes did not mean the pilots were being sold down the
river. They will be paid market rates and when there are extras, they will
get more, he explained.
'Now, I want to hear what you have to say,' he said after an hour.
Over the next, the pilots vented their grievances, imploring for
understanding.
Captain Mok Hin Choon, the new president of Alpa-S, said the company had to
reflect and see if it could bring along its people, pointing out that even
its NTUC-related unions were unhappy.
'Trust has been missing for the last few years,' he said, adding that 'it
takes two hands to clap'.
Out of the bag leapt their biggest bugbear - the overseas-based pilots. The
company kept rebuffing their proposals to relook the scheme which they said
was inefficient, wasteful and resulted in rostering that left them with
scraps while their overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes.
Flight operations was in charge, came the reply, when Mr Lee asked who was
behind it all if they were right about the matter.
'If all this is true, then the flight operations must be blind or stupid!
... I want an explanation from them because I cannot believe this,' he said.
'You give me a paper, I will look at it.'
He promised the human resources of the airline would be revamped and urged
the pilots to give new chief executive officer Chew Choon Seng a chance.
As trust was rebuilt, there should be more information sharing so both sides
could work together.
They told him 38 pilots had left in recent months. Where were they going, he
wanted to know.
There will be changes, he said.
'I am assuring you that the Government will make sure that SIA acts in good
faith,' he said.
Mr Lee went on to answer one of the main questions on the minds of
Singaporeans: Why did the Government need to intervene in an internal
company matter? 'We are the majority owners and we will ensure that they act
in the interest of the country, and the interest of the country requires
cooperation, trust and confidence from the unions.'
Why did it have to be the Senior Minister?
As he explained it, he had dealt with the airline from the beginning, it was
fair he saw to it that the restive relationship between the pilots in the
early years still continuing today, end.
But he was also realistic enough to concede this much: The residual feelings
of suspicion would still be there.
Capt Mok too made this plain enough when he told the media later Alpa-S was
not ready to embrace NTUC.
But yes, he and the others pledged to work on a clean slate, work in
partnership with management and give things a go. They would use the
negotiations for the new collective agreement as a time for
trust-building.
Post by XiaoMei
By the end of it, it felt as if the fog of suspicion that had settled
between Government and Alpa-S these past months had a good chance of
lifting.
As the press walked in at the tail end of the meeting and posed questions,
Captain Mok insisted on looking forward, vowing to make a clean start.
Details of difficulties with management? No, he wasn't keen on hitting the
headlines with that.
Details of demands? No, not keen either.
Management should thank him for closing the books thus.
The meeting ended with handshakes all around, even with the solemn-looking
Capt Goh.
If there was any sense of deja vu in the room, Captain Freddie Koh must have
felt it most.
He was among a posse of union pilots Mr Lee summoned to the Istana in 1980
for daring to fan a go-slow action to vent their disgruntlement over pay and
work conditions.
He told them then in unvarnished language: 'I do not want to do you in but I
will not let anyone do Singapore in.'
When trouble with Alpa-S began, Mr Lee said he wanted to clean up on the
restiveness that was resurfacing. 'This is a job that has to be finished and
I'll finish it.'
Thursday afternoon moved towards that conclusion.
Looking back, throughout it all, the Senior Minister in effect employed the
familiar strategy of good cop, bad cop. Except that he played both roles.
Now that he and the Government have said their piece and the pilots have
made peace, SIA needs to break its deafening silence. Soon.
tanpecklian
2004-02-29 23:20:01 UTC
Permalink
After all these years, he hasn't changed from his "I'm a thug" days.
I can envisage all those pilots sending out their resumes now, what
with the demand from all the the no frills arilines start-ups in the
region. So at the end of the day, who will bear the responsibility
for the demise of SIA? Even the Singapore girls are not smiling
anymore; they are digging up old pictures for the current ads.
Post by Ethical Egoist
I think Capt. Goh should answer like this to sm, that sm and family too have
houses and lands in australia and when the country goes down will he raise
from your grave and will his family stay? Also, I think he is much concern
of the 38 pilots that have left, otherwise he wouldn't have conducted the
meeting, although he gave much excuses about why an sm was involved in such
matters. Noticed, he doesn't really know why pilots were unhappy, such as
"overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes", his years in
politics delude his mind that everyone is out to bring down his country or
his wealth making machine.
Finally, such meetings are usually one sided, I think Capt. Mok by now
should feel after the meeting that he have got nothing out of it and maybe
made a ass or a publicity out of his expense and made sm look more popular
that he is willing to listen. There is a term in this in psychology and it
is call "Tragedy of the Commons". I think Capt. Koh did felt the deja vu
there.
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
---
SM's meeting with pilots: What happened at the Istana
ST 29/2/2004
By Zuraidah Ibrahim
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you.' -- SM Lee Kuan Yew
AS THE guests stepped into the pristine hallways of the Istana last
Thursday
Post by XiaoMei
afternoon, it was clear from their expectant faces that they were not
there
Post by XiaoMei
on one of those routine diplomatic goodwill visits.
This was no courtesy call.
The 14 Singapore Airlines pilots - a carefully selected mix of unionists
ousted from leadership last November and their successors - were first
ushered into a drawing room.
Some sat armed with files. Others waited with folded arms. Eventually,
they
Post by XiaoMei
were shepherded up to the chandelier-draped Sheares Room. Several paused
at
Post by XiaoMei
the bottom of the stairs, staring curiously through glass doors into a
roomful of journalists.
Upstairs, they were about to face the man who had served them a series of
public rebukes over the past few months.
He was after 'the principals and the ringleaders' behind the ouster of the
union leadership, he had said.
'If they play this game, there will be broken heads,' he said on another
occasion.
'Think carefully,' he cautioned them later, suspecting that the pilots
were
Post by XiaoMei
on a collision course with management.
That Thursday afternoon, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew began with an
explanation.
'I decided to take up this issue since I've been involved with Singapore
Airlines from the start,' he said.
In case the pilots needed reminding, he pointed out that it was he who had
secured the pact for SIA's first and most lucrative route then to London.
It
Post by XiaoMei
was he who had asked for Changi to be built, despite expert studies
favouring Paya Lebar. It was he who had seen the airline through its
turbulent early years.
'So,' he said, 'I have no intention for it to go down'.
If the pilots had anticipated facing an uncompromising force, they were
right.
But if they had feared that this determination would extend to siding
completely with SIA's management, they were wrong.
Instead, he gave his word, several times, that SIA management would be put
right.
'There will be no sacred cows,' he said, meaning this clearing of the way
of
Post by XiaoMei
past agreements and positions would probably apply equally to the union as
it would to management.
In the two-hour exchange that followed, he also gave them a tutorial on
industrial relations, what it meant to be an effective union, and the
importance of non-confrontational, cooperative labour-management relations
within Singapore's formula for success.
He came to power on the back of union support, he recounted to those in
need
Post by XiaoMei
of a history lesson. As a lawyer new to politics, he had done work for
unions for free. His pro-union credentials were as unimpeachable as his
pro-business record, he appeared to be saying.
But what he could not countenance was an adversarial relationship that
could
Post by XiaoMei
bring Singapore down.
Thus, he reasoned with the delegation, to win their minds rather than
break
Post by XiaoMei
their heads.
First, however, there was a reading of the riot act to one Captain Ryan
Goh.
Post by XiaoMei
The master politician was at work.
You were the prime mover, were you not, behind the machinations to vote
against the union leadership, he asked.
This, even though you were on the very council of the Air Line Pilots
Association-Singapore (Alpa-S)?
That fateful ouster was what had brought the pilots that afternoon to the
Istana.
Alpa-S - which guards jealously its status as an independent union that
stays out of the tripartite loop - booted out its leaders after rueing the
wage cuts that they had accepted and members had earlier endorsed.
The pilots agreed to the lower pay during the Sars outbreak when the
airline
Post by XiaoMei
was bleeding. But after it made a stunning turnaround a quarter later, a
whispering campaign began about the union being weak. The larger battle
ahead - negotiating a new collective agreement then in its last days -
needed stronger stomachs, the sentiment went.
Reading from a file, Mr Lee pulled out the following facts about Captain
Goh.
A Malaysian with permanent residence status here, he had accepted
Australian
Post by XiaoMei
PR in 2002, moved his wife and children to Perth, shipped his car and sold
his flat.
You told someone from IE Singapore that the grass had stopped growing in
Singapore, did you not, he asked.
He turned to one of the pilots and asked if he knew the Malaysian had
bought
Post by XiaoMei
a house in Australia and had this option to bail out.
No, the person answered.
'No?' repeated Mr Lee.
'That's deception, isn't it?' he asked Capt Goh.
The pilot in the hot seat tried to defend himself but it was too late. The
line in the sand between him and the Singaporeans had been drawn for him.
'My daughter is still in school here,' he tried saying, adding this showed
he still had roots in Singapore.
But wasn't that because she did not like school in Australia and came
back,
Post by XiaoMei
Mr Lee shot back calmly.
Silence.
The castigation, no doubt a tactic of divide-and-rule, also established a
more significant point: It is not up to PRs or other foreigners to get
into
Post by XiaoMei
union matters and play around with decisions that affect the rest of
Singaporeans.
Capt Goh had tried to undermine the interests of SIA and Singapore, he
said.
Post by XiaoMei
'If Singapore goes down, you go down,' he told the Singaporeans across the
table. 'He doesn't go down.'
With that out of the way, he laid out what he wanted to achieve out of the
meeting: a fresh start.
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you,' he told them.
'Tell me whether we can cooperate.'
Yes, they could tell him one thing and act another way, but he was not
interested in that.
'I don't hold you to blame for everything. Nor is the management
responsible
Post by XiaoMei
for all the things that have gone wrong. 'I want to create a new
partnership
Post by XiaoMei
of trust and cooperation, not confrontation,' he said.
The pilots needed to understand what was at stake. When members ousted
their
Post by XiaoMei
leaders, their actions jarred and suggested they were clueless about the
environment they operated in: An economy on the remake trying to ease its
cost pressures and an aviation industry that will be forever changed by
the
Post by XiaoMei
wringer it went through these last few years.
SIA did not need hostile industrial relations that would weigh it down at
a
Post by XiaoMei
time when the connectivity that the airline and Changi provided was facing
intense competition. Without that connectivity that other parts of the
economy were premised upon, Singapore would suffer.
'So it puzzles me. Pilots are intelligent people. How is it you are out of
touch?' he asked rhetorically.
It was partly because, someone had told him, he said, pilots were out of
the
Post by XiaoMei
country half the time. Partly also, they were out of the know because they
were not under the National Trades Union Congress, which would have kept
members apprised of the slightest twitch of its trouble-on-the-horizon
barometer.
Whatever the case, he set the parameters for future moves.
All National Wages Council recommendations must be accepted if the airline
was to achieve flexibility and nimbleness to outlast the competition.
Wages would have to be as variable as possible. Profit-sharing must factor
in return on capital. Retrenchment benefits must be capped at 25 years.
Medical benefits would no longer be fully paid for, a bitter pill almost
all
Post by XiaoMei
Singaporean workers have already swallowed, some as far back as a decade
ago.
But all these changes did not mean the pilots were being sold down the
river. They will be paid market rates and when there are extras, they will
get more, he explained.
'Now, I want to hear what you have to say,' he said after an hour.
Over the next, the pilots vented their grievances, imploring for
understanding.
Captain Mok Hin Choon, the new president of Alpa-S, said the company had
to
Post by XiaoMei
reflect and see if it could bring along its people, pointing out that even
its NTUC-related unions were unhappy.
'Trust has been missing for the last few years,' he said, adding that 'it
takes two hands to clap'.
Out of the bag leapt their biggest bugbear - the overseas-based pilots.
The
Post by XiaoMei
company kept rebuffing their proposals to relook the scheme which they
said
Post by XiaoMei
was inefficient, wasteful and resulted in rostering that left them with
scraps while their overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes.
Flight operations was in charge, came the reply, when Mr Lee asked who was
behind it all if they were right about the matter.
'If all this is true, then the flight operations must be blind or stupid!
... I want an explanation from them because I cannot believe this,' he
said.
Post by XiaoMei
'You give me a paper, I will look at it.'
He promised the human resources of the airline would be revamped and urged
the pilots to give new chief executive officer Chew Choon Seng a chance.
As trust was rebuilt, there should be more information sharing so both
sides
Post by XiaoMei
could work together.
They told him 38 pilots had left in recent months. Where were they going,
he
Post by XiaoMei
wanted to know.
There will be changes, he said.
'I am assuring you that the Government will make sure that SIA acts in
good
Post by XiaoMei
faith,' he said.
Mr Lee went on to answer one of the main questions on the minds of
Singaporeans: Why did the Government need to intervene in an internal
company matter? 'We are the majority owners and we will ensure that they
act
Post by XiaoMei
in the interest of the country, and the interest of the country requires
cooperation, trust and confidence from the unions.'
Why did it have to be the Senior Minister?
As he explained it, he had dealt with the airline from the beginning, it
was
Post by XiaoMei
fair he saw to it that the restive relationship between the pilots in the
early years still continuing today, end.
But he was also realistic enough to concede this much: The residual
feelings
Post by XiaoMei
of suspicion would still be there.
Capt Mok too made this plain enough when he told the media later Alpa-S
was
Post by XiaoMei
not ready to embrace NTUC.
But yes, he and the others pledged to work on a clean slate, work in
partnership with management and give things a go. They would use the
negotiations for the new collective agreement as a time for
trust-building.
Post by XiaoMei
By the end of it, it felt as if the fog of suspicion that had settled
between Government and Alpa-S these past months had a good chance of
lifting.
As the press walked in at the tail end of the meeting and posed questions,
Captain Mok insisted on looking forward, vowing to make a clean start.
Details of difficulties with management? No, he wasn't keen on hitting the
headlines with that.
Details of demands? No, not keen either.
Management should thank him for closing the books thus.
The meeting ended with handshakes all around, even with the solemn-looking
Capt Goh.
If there was any sense of deja vu in the room, Captain Freddie Koh must
have
Post by XiaoMei
felt it most.
He was among a posse of union pilots Mr Lee summoned to the Istana in 1980
for daring to fan a go-slow action to vent their disgruntlement over pay
and
Post by XiaoMei
work conditions.
He told them then in unvarnished language: 'I do not want to do you in but
I
Post by XiaoMei
will not let anyone do Singapore in.'
When trouble with Alpa-S began, Mr Lee said he wanted to clean up on the
restiveness that was resurfacing. 'This is a job that has to be finished
and
Post by XiaoMei
I'll finish it.'
Thursday afternoon moved towards that conclusion.
Looking back, throughout it all, the Senior Minister in effect employed
the
Post by XiaoMei
familiar strategy of good cop, bad cop. Except that he played both roles.
Now that he and the Government have said their piece and the pilots have
made peace, SIA needs to break its deafening silence. Soon.
MADCOW
2004-03-01 01:53:37 UTC
Permalink
You must hand it to SM. He is really a politician. No other ministers or PAP
politicians could have done it better.

However, after having saying that, we should start worrying for Singapore.
Remember what happened in Nee Soon Central? We need our nearly 80 year old
SM to settle the problems of the temples, basically a grassroot and local
problem. Now, we need our SM to settle the problem of industrial
relationship. We seem to need SM everywhere, from small to big problems!

Even assuming we would have SM living up to 100 years old, do we really need
him for another 20 years to solve all these big and small problems? And from
the look of SIA saga, I think there is something quite interesting but
missing.

SM has all his facts gathered most probably by his intelligence unit, all on
one man, Capt Goh. Capt Goh has done nothing illegal and most probably
that's why they couldn't nail him down, legally. But the information is
carefully crafted to make Capt Goh looks bad. From the revealation of the
details, it seems that alot of work has been done on Capt Goh, even know the
very details of how his child dislike school in Australia. This could only
be done by listening or eavesdropping into family converstaions.

Thus, it seems that right from the start, the selection of targets have been
made. I do believe that there are multiple targets selected and Capt Goh was
featured due to his shift to Austrialia. It took them months to come up with
such details.

Ironically, SM did not send people spying on the organization of SIA itself;
why are there defiant unionists out to make trouble?! The ignorance of SM
over the various practices by SIA management that have caused grievances
among the employees, pilots and including all other NTUC unions is such a
glaring inadequacy of his intelligence gathering. It means that right from
the start, the first footing of intelligence gathering is already flawed.

It could mean that SM believes whatever information the management has
provided him. SM is afterall, the boss of the biggest shareholder of SIA,
GIC via Termasek. It is good for a boss to trust his management team, but
when there is apparently something wrong with the system, it is better to do
some information gathering from the ground. That's how those extraordinary
emperors of the past govern their empires, reaching out the ground by
walking it on "plain cloths". You can't always trust the words of those who
have a stake in the whole matter....you don't expect them to tell you that
they have really screwed up this time, right?

This little inadequacy has demonstrated the bigger problem at hand. Despite
having the so call "Feedback Unit" or Unions under NTUC, people are not
honest of the true happenings on the ground, for whatever fear or reasons
they have. Information gets distorted and all dirty bad things have been
swept under the carpet while the game of pushing blame takes place.

SIA HR problems have started a few years back. If SIA is such an important
entity of our economy, such strained industrial relationship caused by
mismanagement should not go unnoticed for such a long period! SIA HR
problems were even raised here several times in the past few years!

I think management teams of GLCs like SIA thought that they have a free hand
to shove unfavourable terms to its employess just because PAP govt has
always been stressing to the unions and Singaporeans that we should
"compromise", "cut pay" and stuffs like that to keep companies afloat and
profitable. They feel that they have the upper hand in bargaining and could
possibly do whatever they want with the backing of a strong govt. They could
possibly shove unfavourable terms to union and say, take it or leave it.
They are confident that if the company cannot perform, they could always
blame on high cost and use the employees' benefits as sarcrifice on the
sacred alter of cost cutting. Such off-balance management is happening
everywhere.

SIA is the only the first entity under govt controlled to have such strained
industrial-labour relationship to surface, thanks or no thanks to a strong
independent union. SM should thank Alpha S for highlighting such problems
early and do some reflections on other GLCs. If the widespread problems are
not capped at its infancy, it will come to a breaking point that everything
will fail. And by then, SM may not even be there to save the day.

Singaporeans are not only feeling the stress of the prospect of being
unemployed. They are facing the stress that their company's management are
putting on them, taking full advantage of strong govt backing in actions as
well as words, and a weak economy. There is one suicide everyday in
Singapore but nobody borders to ask why or do some investigations and study
into it.

We should fear for Singapore's future. Even with SM around, the creeping
problem of mismanagement is still so widespread. What will become of
Singapore with his eventual demise?


MADCOW
Post by Ethical Egoist
I think Capt. Goh should answer like this to sm, that sm and family too have
houses and lands in australia and when the country goes down will he raise
from your grave and will his family stay? Also, I think he is much concern
of the 38 pilots that have left, otherwise he wouldn't have conducted the
meeting, although he gave much excuses about why an sm was involved in such
matters. Noticed, he doesn't really know why pilots were unhappy, such as
"overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes", his years in
politics delude his mind that everyone is out to bring down his country or
his wealth making machine.
Finally, such meetings are usually one sided, I think Capt. Mok by now
should feel after the meeting that he have got nothing out of it and maybe
made a ass or a publicity out of his expense and made sm look more popular
that he is willing to listen. There is a term in this in psychology and it
is call "Tragedy of the Commons". I think Capt. Koh did felt the deja vu
there.
Gat Florentine
2004-03-01 02:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Excellent analysis - well said....
Post by MADCOW
You must hand it to SM. He is really a politician. No other ministers or PAP
politicians could have done it better.
However, after having saying that, we should start worrying for Singapore.
Remember what happened in Nee Soon Central? We need our nearly 80 year old
SM to settle the problems of the temples, basically a grassroot and local
problem. Now, we need our SM to settle the problem of industrial
relationship. We seem to need SM everywhere, from small to big problems!
Even assuming we would have SM living up to 100 years old, do we really need
him for another 20 years to solve all these big and small problems? And from
the look of SIA saga, I think there is something quite interesting but
missing.
SM has all his facts gathered most probably by his intelligence unit, all on
one man, Capt Goh. Capt Goh has done nothing illegal and most probably
that's why they couldn't nail him down, legally. But the information is
carefully crafted to make Capt Goh looks bad. From the revealation of the
details, it seems that alot of work has been done on Capt Goh, even know the
very details of how his child dislike school in Australia. This could only
be done by listening or eavesdropping into family converstaions.
Thus, it seems that right from the start, the selection of targets have been
made. I do believe that there are multiple targets selected and Capt Goh was
featured due to his shift to Austrialia. It took them months to come up with
such details.
Ironically, SM did not send people spying on the organization of SIA itself;
why are there defiant unionists out to make trouble?! The ignorance of SM
over the various practices by SIA management that have caused grievances
among the employees, pilots and including all other NTUC unions is such a
glaring inadequacy of his intelligence gathering. It means that right from
the start, the first footing of intelligence gathering is already flawed.
It could mean that SM believes whatever information the management has
provided him. SM is afterall, the boss of the biggest shareholder of SIA,
GIC via Termasek. It is good for a boss to trust his management team, but
when there is apparently something wrong with the system, it is better to do
some information gathering from the ground. That's how those extraordinary
emperors of the past govern their empires, reaching out the ground by
walking it on "plain cloths". You can't always trust the words of those who
have a stake in the whole matter....you don't expect them to tell you that
they have really screwed up this time, right?
This little inadequacy has demonstrated the bigger problem at hand. Despite
having the so call "Feedback Unit" or Unions under NTUC, people are not
honest of the true happenings on the ground, for whatever fear or reasons
they have. Information gets distorted and all dirty bad things have been
swept under the carpet while the game of pushing blame takes place.
SIA HR problems have started a few years back. If SIA is such an important
entity of our economy, such strained industrial relationship caused by
mismanagement should not go unnoticed for such a long period! SIA HR
problems were even raised here several times in the past few years!
I think management teams of GLCs like SIA thought that they have a free hand
to shove unfavourable terms to its employess just because PAP govt has
always been stressing to the unions and Singaporeans that we should
"compromise", "cut pay" and stuffs like that to keep companies afloat and
profitable. They feel that they have the upper hand in bargaining and could
possibly do whatever they want with the backing of a strong govt. They could
possibly shove unfavourable terms to union and say, take it or leave it.
They are confident that if the company cannot perform, they could always
blame on high cost and use the employees' benefits as sarcrifice on the
sacred alter of cost cutting. Such off-balance management is happening
everywhere.
SIA is the only the first entity under govt controlled to have such strained
industrial-labour relationship to surface, thanks or no thanks to a strong
independent union. SM should thank Alpha S for highlighting such problems
early and do some reflections on other GLCs. If the widespread problems are
not capped at its infancy, it will come to a breaking point that everything
will fail. And by then, SM may not even be there to save the day.
Singaporeans are not only feeling the stress of the prospect of being
unemployed. They are facing the stress that their company's management are
putting on them, taking full advantage of strong govt backing in actions as
well as words, and a weak economy. There is one suicide everyday in
Singapore but nobody borders to ask why or do some investigations and study
into it.
We should fear for Singapore's future. Even with SM around, the creeping
problem of mismanagement is still so widespread. What will become of
Singapore with his eventual demise?
MADCOW
Post by Ethical Egoist
I think Capt. Goh should answer like this to sm, that sm and family too
have
Post by Ethical Egoist
houses and lands in australia and when the country goes down will he raise
from your grave and will his family stay? Also, I think he is much concern
of the 38 pilots that have left, otherwise he wouldn't have conducted the
meeting, although he gave much excuses about why an sm was involved in
such
Post by Ethical Egoist
matters. Noticed, he doesn't really know why pilots were unhappy, such as
"overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes", his years in
politics delude his mind that everyone is out to bring down his country or
his wealth making machine.
Finally, such meetings are usually one sided, I think Capt. Mok by now
should feel after the meeting that he have got nothing out of it and maybe
made a ass or a publicity out of his expense and made sm look more popular
that he is willing to listen. There is a term in this in psychology and it
is call "Tragedy of the Commons". I think Capt. Koh did felt the deja vu
there.
Ethical Egoist
2004-03-01 03:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Precisely, "how those extraordinary emperors of the past govern their
empires, reaching out the ground by walking it on "plain cloths"" and ours
doesn't do that and they are paid millions in salaries. I've hear this all
the time that they are not to be blamed and the usual excuses like what
you've brought up "SM believes whatever information the management has
provided him.". If their management teams are so inefficient they ought to
be fired, but there are too much politics here like you scratch my back and
I scratch yours. Look at all the mess HDB has created and still nothing is
being looked into, and everyone is assuming everything is going fine, as
long as, money is still churning in. Look at Land Authority, they too ought
to be looked into seriously, like executing the law for compulsory land
acquisition and paying land owners $1 in compensation or very much lesser
then true market value, how would you explain that. The entire management
should really be looked into and not the ISA checking on the citizen but on
the management itself.

If such matters were to happen in japan sm would have committed suicide and
not put the blame on others, caused it was he who have selected his cabinet
members and others got no say in any matters, he is the sole responsibility
of all these issues and problems that have arised. So, should we be blaming
on lower managements if the rest on the top are crooks too?
Post by MADCOW
You must hand it to SM. He is really a politician. No other ministers or PAP
politicians could have done it better.
However, after having saying that, we should start worrying for Singapore.
Remember what happened in Nee Soon Central? We need our nearly 80 year old
SM to settle the problems of the temples, basically a grassroot and local
problem. Now, we need our SM to settle the problem of industrial
relationship. We seem to need SM everywhere, from small to big problems!
Even assuming we would have SM living up to 100 years old, do we really need
him for another 20 years to solve all these big and small problems? And from
the look of SIA saga, I think there is something quite interesting but
missing.
SM has all his facts gathered most probably by his intelligence unit, all on
one man, Capt Goh. Capt Goh has done nothing illegal and most probably
that's why they couldn't nail him down, legally. But the information is
carefully crafted to make Capt Goh looks bad. From the revealation of the
details, it seems that alot of work has been done on Capt Goh, even know the
very details of how his child dislike school in Australia. This could only
be done by listening or eavesdropping into family converstaions.
Thus, it seems that right from the start, the selection of targets have been
made. I do believe that there are multiple targets selected and Capt Goh was
featured due to his shift to Austrialia. It took them months to come up with
such details.
Ironically, SM did not send people spying on the organization of SIA itself;
why are there defiant unionists out to make trouble?! The ignorance of SM
over the various practices by SIA management that have caused grievances
among the employees, pilots and including all other NTUC unions is such a
glaring inadequacy of his intelligence gathering. It means that right from
the start, the first footing of intelligence gathering is already flawed.
It could mean that SM believes whatever information the management has
provided him. SM is afterall, the boss of the biggest shareholder of SIA,
GIC via Termasek. It is good for a boss to trust his management team, but
when there is apparently something wrong with the system, it is better to do
some information gathering from the ground. That's how those extraordinary
emperors of the past govern their empires, reaching out the ground by
walking it on "plain cloths". You can't always trust the words of those who
have a stake in the whole matter....you don't expect them to tell you that
they have really screwed up this time, right?
This little inadequacy has demonstrated the bigger problem at hand. Despite
having the so call "Feedback Unit" or Unions under NTUC, people are not
honest of the true happenings on the ground, for whatever fear or reasons
they have. Information gets distorted and all dirty bad things have been
swept under the carpet while the game of pushing blame takes place.
SIA HR problems have started a few years back. If SIA is such an important
entity of our economy, such strained industrial relationship caused by
mismanagement should not go unnoticed for such a long period! SIA HR
problems were even raised here several times in the past few years!
I think management teams of GLCs like SIA thought that they have a free hand
to shove unfavourable terms to its employess just because PAP govt has
always been stressing to the unions and Singaporeans that we should
"compromise", "cut pay" and stuffs like that to keep companies afloat and
profitable. They feel that they have the upper hand in bargaining and could
possibly do whatever they want with the backing of a strong govt. They could
possibly shove unfavourable terms to union and say, take it or leave it.
They are confident that if the company cannot perform, they could always
blame on high cost and use the employees' benefits as sarcrifice on the
sacred alter of cost cutting. Such off-balance management is happening
everywhere.
SIA is the only the first entity under govt controlled to have such strained
industrial-labour relationship to surface, thanks or no thanks to a strong
independent union. SM should thank Alpha S for highlighting such problems
early and do some reflections on other GLCs. If the widespread problems are
not capped at its infancy, it will come to a breaking point that everything
will fail. And by then, SM may not even be there to save the day.
Singaporeans are not only feeling the stress of the prospect of being
unemployed. They are facing the stress that their company's management are
putting on them, taking full advantage of strong govt backing in actions as
well as words, and a weak economy. There is one suicide everyday in
Singapore but nobody borders to ask why or do some investigations and study
into it.
We should fear for Singapore's future. Even with SM around, the creeping
problem of mismanagement is still so widespread. What will become of
Singapore with his eventual demise?
MADCOW
Post by Ethical Egoist
I think Capt. Goh should answer like this to sm, that sm and family too
have
Post by Ethical Egoist
houses and lands in australia and when the country goes down will he raise
from your grave and will his family stay? Also, I think he is much concern
of the 38 pilots that have left, otherwise he wouldn't have conducted the
meeting, although he gave much excuses about why an sm was involved in
such
Post by Ethical Egoist
matters. Noticed, he doesn't really know why pilots were unhappy, such as
"overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes", his years in
politics delude his mind that everyone is out to bring down his country or
his wealth making machine.
Finally, such meetings are usually one sided, I think Capt. Mok by now
should feel after the meeting that he have got nothing out of it and maybe
made a ass or a publicity out of his expense and made sm look more popular
that he is willing to listen. There is a term in this in psychology and it
is call "Tragedy of the Commons". I think Capt. Koh did felt the deja vu
there.
ardeedee
2004-03-01 04:45:34 UTC
Permalink
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the Pilots as
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the scapegoat
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one management
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?

Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is now one
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?

The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was Tay Siow
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of staff
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was appointed
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.

He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the objectivity and
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.

In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to ISD.
Post by MADCOW
You must hand it to SM. He is really a politician. No other ministers or PAP
politicians could have done it better.
However, after having saying that, we should start worrying for Singapore.
Remember what happened in Nee Soon Central? We need our nearly 80 year old
SM to settle the problems of the temples, basically a grassroot and local
problem. Now, we need our SM to settle the problem of industrial
relationship. We seem to need SM everywhere, from small to big problems!
Even assuming we would have SM living up to 100 years old, do we really need
him for another 20 years to solve all these big and small problems? And from
the look of SIA saga, I think there is something quite interesting but
missing.
SM has all his facts gathered most probably by his intelligence unit, all on
one man, Capt Goh. Capt Goh has done nothing illegal and most probably
that's why they couldn't nail him down, legally. But the information is
carefully crafted to make Capt Goh looks bad. From the revealation of the
details, it seems that alot of work has been done on Capt Goh, even know the
very details of how his child dislike school in Australia. This could only
be done by listening or eavesdropping into family converstaions.
Thus, it seems that right from the start, the selection of targets have been
made. I do believe that there are multiple targets selected and Capt Goh was
featured due to his shift to Austrialia. It took them months to come up with
such details.
Ironically, SM did not send people spying on the organization of SIA itself;
why are there defiant unionists out to make trouble?! The ignorance of SM
over the various practices by SIA management that have caused grievances
among the employees, pilots and including all other NTUC unions is such a
glaring inadequacy of his intelligence gathering. It means that right from
the start, the first footing of intelligence gathering is already flawed.
It could mean that SM believes whatever information the management has
provided him. SM is afterall, the boss of the biggest shareholder of SIA,
GIC via Termasek. It is good for a boss to trust his management team, but
when there is apparently something wrong with the system, it is better to do
some information gathering from the ground. That's how those extraordinary
emperors of the past govern their empires, reaching out the ground by
walking it on "plain cloths". You can't always trust the words of those who
have a stake in the whole matter....you don't expect them to tell you that
they have really screwed up this time, right?
This little inadequacy has demonstrated the bigger problem at hand. Despite
having the so call "Feedback Unit" or Unions under NTUC, people are not
honest of the true happenings on the ground, for whatever fear or reasons
they have. Information gets distorted and all dirty bad things have been
swept under the carpet while the game of pushing blame takes place.
SIA HR problems have started a few years back. If SIA is such an important
entity of our economy, such strained industrial relationship caused by
mismanagement should not go unnoticed for such a long period! SIA HR
problems were even raised here several times in the past few years!
I think management teams of GLCs like SIA thought that they have a free hand
to shove unfavourable terms to its employess just because PAP govt has
always been stressing to the unions and Singaporeans that we should
"compromise", "cut pay" and stuffs like that to keep companies afloat and
profitable. They feel that they have the upper hand in bargaining and could
possibly do whatever they want with the backing of a strong govt. They could
possibly shove unfavourable terms to union and say, take it or leave it.
They are confident that if the company cannot perform, they could always
blame on high cost and use the employees' benefits as sarcrifice on the
sacred alter of cost cutting. Such off-balance management is happening
everywhere.
SIA is the only the first entity under govt controlled to have such strained
industrial-labour relationship to surface, thanks or no thanks to a strong
independent union. SM should thank Alpha S for highlighting such problems
early and do some reflections on other GLCs. If the widespread problems are
not capped at its infancy, it will come to a breaking point that everything
will fail. And by then, SM may not even be there to save the day.
Singaporeans are not only feeling the stress of the prospect of being
unemployed. They are facing the stress that their company's management are
putting on them, taking full advantage of strong govt backing in actions as
well as words, and a weak economy. There is one suicide everyday in
Singapore but nobody borders to ask why or do some investigations and study
into it.
We should fear for Singapore's future. Even with SM around, the creeping
problem of mismanagement is still so widespread. What will become of
Singapore with his eventual demise?
MADCOW
Post by Ethical Egoist
I think Capt. Goh should answer like this to sm, that sm and family too
have
Post by Ethical Egoist
houses and lands in australia and when the country goes down will he raise
from your grave and will his family stay? Also, I think he is much concern
of the 38 pilots that have left, otherwise he wouldn't have conducted the
meeting, although he gave much excuses about why an sm was involved in
such
Post by Ethical Egoist
matters. Noticed, he doesn't really know why pilots were unhappy, such as
"overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes", his years in
politics delude his mind that everyone is out to bring down his country or
his wealth making machine.
Finally, such meetings are usually one sided, I think Capt. Mok by now
should feel after the meeting that he have got nothing out of it and maybe
made a ass or a publicity out of his expense and made sm look more popular
that he is willing to listen. There is a term in this in psychology and it
is call "Tragedy of the Commons". I think Capt. Koh did felt the deja vu
there.
Robert Ho
2004-03-01 11:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the Pilots as
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the scapegoat
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one management
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is now one
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was Tay Siow
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of staff
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was appointed
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the objectivity and
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to ISD.
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled dossiers
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of their
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that, either
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any reputation,
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this? Because
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
ardeedee
2004-03-01 12:06:16 UTC
Permalink
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed dossiers on any
and every individual he confronts.

In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the "book" at their
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how detailed it
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the previous
night.

You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of your life
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.

The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the modern
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence sources can
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily activities
without having to trail you.

Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any PAP leader
you must have spotless life and clean living.
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the Pilots as
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the scapegoat
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one management
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is now one
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was Tay Siow
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of staff
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was appointed
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the objectivity and
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to ISD.
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled dossiers
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of their
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that, either
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any reputation,
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this? Because
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
STRAIGHTS TIMED
2004-03-01 13:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed dossiers on any
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the "book" at their
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how detailed it
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the previous
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of your life
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the modern
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence sources can
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily activities
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any PAP leader
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..

than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the Pilots
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is now
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was Tay
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of staff
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the objectivity
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to ISD.
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled dossiers
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of their
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that, either
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any reputation,
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this? Because
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
ardeedee
2004-03-01 14:06:06 UTC
Permalink
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are maintained on
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important personages
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed dossiers on any
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the "book" at their
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how detailed it
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the previous
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of your life
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the modern
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence sources can
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily activities
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any PAP leader
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the Pilots
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is now
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was Tay
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of staff
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the objectivity
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to ISD.
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled dossiers
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of their
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that, either
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any reputation,
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this? Because
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
STRAIGHTS TIMED
2004-03-01 14:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are maintained on
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important personages
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
so,should a VIP's wife stray or his child puffs pot or
the VIP himself has a fling with his secretary ; is that
a plus or minus point !
ardeedee
2004-03-02 01:39:50 UTC
Permalink
Depends on whether they are PAP supporters or members or oppositionist.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are maintained on
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important personages
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
so,should a VIP's wife stray or his child puffs pot or
the VIP himself has a fling with his secretary ; is that
a plus or minus point !
Ethical Egoist
2004-03-02 01:54:59 UTC
Permalink
lky has a dirty habit he likes to keep all these darkside of everyone in
files, and pull them out in times of need. Talk about hobbies, now you see,
he is actually a witch counting his price collections (files/data) and
giggling through the night. Count on me Singapore...Count on me
Singapore...., doesn't that sound familiar?
Post by ardeedee
Depends on whether they are PAP supporters or members or oppositionist.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained on
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important
personages
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
so,should a VIP's wife stray or his child puffs pot or
the VIP himself has a fling with his secretary ; is that
a plus or minus point !
ardeedee
2004-03-02 02:34:31 UTC
Permalink
It should not be " count on me " but "count for you "
addressed to the ministers - their riches.
Post by Ethical Egoist
lky has a dirty habit he likes to keep all these darkside of everyone in
files, and pull them out in times of need. Talk about hobbies, now you see,
he is actually a witch counting his price collections (files/data) and
giggling through the night. Count on me Singapore...Count on me
Singapore...., doesn't that sound familiar?
Post by ardeedee
Depends on whether they are PAP supporters or members or oppositionist.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained on
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important
personages
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
so,should a VIP's wife stray or his child puffs pot or
the VIP himself has a fling with his secretary ; is that
a plus or minus point !
Ethical Egoist
2004-03-02 03:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Doesn't rhyme.
Post by ardeedee
It should not be " count on me " but "count for you "
addressed to the ministers - their riches.
Post by Ethical Egoist
lky has a dirty habit he likes to keep all these darkside of everyone in
files, and pull them out in times of need. Talk about hobbies, now you
see,
Post by Ethical Egoist
he is actually a witch counting his price collections (files/data) and
giggling through the night. Count on me Singapore...Count on me
Singapore...., doesn't that sound familiar?
Post by ardeedee
Depends on whether they are PAP supporters or members or
oppositionist.
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained on
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important
personages
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
so,should a VIP's wife stray or his child puffs pot or
the VIP himself has a fling with his secretary ; is that
a plus or minus point !
STRAIGHTS TIMED
2004-03-02 02:08:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by ardeedee
Depends on whether they are PAP supporters or members or oppositionist.
you missed my point ; what i am indeed asking is ,is it
not more favorable to have a 'tainted' dossiers on their
very own cadres than clean dossiers !

with such tainted dossiers ,which politician would dare to
oppose and speak consciously against the administration since
his dirty -linen would be washed publicly...

in short ;if you were the 'God-father' would you not rather
have your subordinates with colorful and tainted dossiers than
clean cut saintly figures on whom whatever your dossiers you
may have accounts for nothing !
ardeedee
2004-03-02 02:37:51 UTC
Permalink
Everybody has weakness and all of us have something we would not like the
world to know but in Lay's case he can blurt out on all his opponents as he
has the access to the intelligent services even if it is not clearly within
jurisdiction.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Depends on whether they are PAP supporters or members or oppositionist.
you missed my point ; what i am indeed asking is ,is it
not more favorable to have a 'tainted' dossiers on their
very own cadres than clean dossiers !
with such tainted dossiers ,which politician would dare to
oppose and speak consciously against the administration since
his dirty -linen would be washed publicly...
in short ;if you were the 'God-father' would you not rather
have your subordinates with colorful and tainted dossiers than
clean cut saintly figures on whom whatever your dossiers you
may have accounts for nothing !
t***@notrashmagix.com.sg
2004-03-05 09:21:35 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:40:59 +0800, STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
so,should a VIP's wife stray or his child puffs pot or
the VIP himself has a fling with his secretary ; is that
a plus or minus point !
As long as he has toed the line, it is a plus. The moment he gets out
of line it becomes a different story. Like how Devan Nair suddenly
became an alcoholic.


SIAOGU

The husband is the head of the house. The wife is the neck. And the neck turns the head.
kilometric
2004-03-02 01:22:16 UTC
Permalink
Does LKY has dossier on SCS posters ?
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are maintained on
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important personages
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed dossiers
on
Post by ardeedee
any
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the "book" at
their
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how
detailed
Post by ardeedee
it
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the previous
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of your
life
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the modern
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence sources
can
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily
activities
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any PAP
leader
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the Pilots
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is now
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was Tay
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of staff
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the
objectivity
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to ISD.
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled dossiers
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of their
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that, either
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any reputation,
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this? Because
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
MADCOW
2004-03-02 01:09:46 UTC
Permalink
Of course! But don't worry lah, unless you are seriously a threat to them,
you would be alright.

MADCOW
Post by kilometric
Does LKY has dossier on SCS posters ?
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important personages
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed dossiers
on
Post by ardeedee
any
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the "book" at
their
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how
detailed
Post by ardeedee
it
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the
previous
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of your
life
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the modern
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence sources
can
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily
activities
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any PAP
leader
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the
Pilots
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is
now
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was Tay
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of
staff
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the
objectivity
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to
ISD.
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled dossiers
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of their
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that, either
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any reputation,
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this? Because
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
Robert Ho
2004-03-02 13:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by MADCOW
Of course! But don't worry lah, unless you are seriously a threat to them,
you would be alright.
MADCOW
RH: I don't think LKY abuses his ISD to just keep tabs on enemies
only. Firstly, he won't know who might turn into an enemy in future
although he may be a very pro-PAP guy now. For example, Francis Seow
was pretty ordinary and part of the establishment until he crossed
LKY's path, probably when he was Law Society President and spoke out
on impending bad legislation. I am not sure here because I am not
privy to the top circles and I didn't follow events closely. So,
Francis became an enemy especially when he was encouraged by the
American Ambassador to run for elections as an Oppositionists.

But his meeting with the American Ambassador, Hendrickson by name, I
think, was already kept under surveillance and LKY could quote exactly
what each said to the other. Thus, Francis, even before he ran, was
already under surveillance.

This means that since LKY could not know who among his very own ranks
might turn against him, he has and probably does, keep every top
person under surveillance. He spares no money, trouble or expense
since all these are taxpayers' money. He has a huge organisation in
his ISD with no budget limits.

Another reason to keep practically everybody under surveillance is to
spot potential recruits into his ranks. For example, Ho Ching was a
President's Scholar around the age of 19 and unless she hails from one
of the nepotic relatives connection, she would thereby have come under
surveillance as a potential leader, that is, assuming she got selected
by merit and not family connections, like LKY's 3 children. So, people
who become outstanding in any way would fall under ISD surveillance.
In Ho Ching's case, it proved useful when LHL needed a second wife and
could only accept a virgin. The ISD would have thereby known Ho Ching
was about the only virgin around as a possible second wife for LHL.
So, ISD surveillance is also useful for finding future spouses for the
LKY clan and relatives. Beware all those LKY clan spouses thinking of
cheating on their spouses!
Ethical Egoist
2004-03-02 01:43:21 UTC
Permalink
He can't be keeping track on everyone here, especially those who keep
changing their nick often. Also, the Istana isn't large enough to gather all
of us.
Post by kilometric
Does LKY has dossier on SCS posters ?
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important personages
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed dossiers
on
Post by ardeedee
any
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the "book" at
their
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how
detailed
Post by ardeedee
it
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the
previous
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of your
life
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the modern
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence sources
can
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily
activities
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any PAP
leader
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the
Pilots
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is
now
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was Tay
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of
staff
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the
objectivity
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to
ISD.
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled dossiers
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of their
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that, either
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any reputation,
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this? Because
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
MADCOW
2004-03-02 01:47:37 UTC
Permalink
You would be surprised at how big our intelligence network is. ;)

MADCOW
Post by Ethical Egoist
He can't be keeping track on everyone here, especially those who keep
changing their nick often. Also, the Istana isn't large enough to gather all
of us.
Post by kilometric
Does LKY has dossier on SCS posters ?
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important
personages
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed dossiers
on
Post by ardeedee
any
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the
"book"
Post by Ethical Egoist
at
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
their
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how
detailed
Post by ardeedee
it
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the
previous
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of
your
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
life
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the modern
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence
sources
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
can
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily
activities
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any PAP
leader
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the
Pilots
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is
now
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was
Tay
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of
staff
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the
objectivity
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to
ISD.
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled
dossiers
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had
hired
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of
their
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that,
either
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any
reputation,
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this?
Because
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
Observer
2004-03-02 11:04:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by MADCOW
You would be surprised at how big our intelligence network is. ;)
LOL..
Then maybe thats why we are in BIG
SHIT...no able no solve real problems.

All the intelligence is used to gather gossip
instead of being used to gather data to
SOLVE Singapore's problems.

This happens in all management systems
that have exist long enough. Where usually
the end comes with in fighting and office politicking
instead of problem solving.

Well...humans must choose their own paths
and how to use the resources they have at hand.
Its how they use it...that will determine the eventual
outcome.

But one thing is sure....evolutionary pressure
have been anhilating weak society since the earliest
records of society.....to make way for stronger ones.
The choice whether a society becomes a survivor
or one that will be eventually extinct is decided on
the course of action that the resources aru put use
to. So do we spend millions just to find dirt on
our enemy or use those millions to improve the society.

Which course of action will survive the test of time?
MADCOW
2004-03-02 12:52:46 UTC
Permalink
I agree totally with you.

We are living in the past framework of "fear", always looking for the new
"fear" factor. Where is the bogey man? We have to look for them.

So much resources have been wasted in nitty gritty projects in monitoring
political dissidents, even when they have left Singapore. Imagine sending
agents over to USA just to spy on Francis Seow. How much monies would have
been wasted! (else, how to know how many times he fly around in USA?)

The internal security department (or any invisible agency) should be
utilized to monitor potential enemies of our nation that are subversive in
nature, and not on political opponents of PAP! The activities The thin lines
differentiating between the party, nation and the people have been all
blurred out due to decades of PAP monopoly on local politics.


MADCOW
Post by Observer
Post by MADCOW
You would be surprised at how big our intelligence network is. ;)
LOL..
Then maybe thats why we are in BIG
SHIT...no able no solve real problems.
All the intelligence is used to gather gossip
instead of being used to gather data to
SOLVE Singapore's problems.
This happens in all management systems
that have exist long enough. Where usually
the end comes with in fighting and office politicking
instead of problem solving.
Well...humans must choose their own paths
and how to use the resources they have at hand.
Its how they use it...that will determine the eventual
outcome.
But one thing is sure....evolutionary pressure
have been anhilating weak society since the earliest
records of society.....to make way for stronger ones.
The choice whether a society becomes a survivor
or one that will be eventually extinct is decided on
the course of action that the resources aru put use
to. So do we spend millions just to find dirt on
our enemy or use those millions to improve the society.
Which course of action will survive the test of time?
The Bishop
2004-03-02 13:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by MADCOW
I agree totally with you.
We are living in the past framework of "fear", always looking for the new
"fear" factor. Where is the bogey man? We have to look for them.
btw ..... was the meeting in Hokkien .....
MADCOW
2004-03-03 02:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Huh?

Why Hokkien? What meeting?

MADCOW
Post by The Bishop
Post by MADCOW
I agree totally with you.
We are living in the past framework of "fear", always looking for the new
"fear" factor. Where is the bogey man? We have to look for them.
btw ..... was the meeting in Hokkien .....
The Bishop
2004-03-03 08:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by MADCOW
Huh?
Why Hokkien? What meeting?
Did I woke you up with that .... you better take a chair and sit down,
breather easy ..... its about the metting between LKY and the plane
drivers .....
w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
2004-03-03 05:56:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by MADCOW
I agree totally with you.
We are living in the past framework of "fear", always looking for the new
"fear" factor. Where is the bogey man? We have to look for them.
So much resources have been wasted in nitty gritty projects in monitoring
political dissidents, even when they have left Singapore. Imagine sending
agents over to USA just to spy on Francis Seow. How much monies would have
been wasted! (else, how to know how many times he fly around in USA?)
Hello. These days, they can even send 2 big teams of people overseas
to see how to pro-create....how they make babies there...what kind of
position is ideal for this biological function..... alamak....what is
1 or 2 spying on Francis Seow....
ardeedee
2004-03-02 02:32:46 UTC
Permalink
How many you think are "us".
Post by Ethical Egoist
He can't be keeping track on everyone here, especially those who keep
changing their nick often. Also, the Istana isn't large enough to gather all
of us.
Post by kilometric
Does LKY has dossier on SCS posters ?
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important
personages
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed dossiers
on
Post by ardeedee
any
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the
"book"
Post by Ethical Egoist
at
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
their
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how
detailed
Post by ardeedee
it
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the
previous
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of
your
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
life
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the modern
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence
sources
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
can
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily
activities
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any PAP
leader
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the
Pilots
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is
now
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was
Tay
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of
staff
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the
objectivity
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to
ISD.
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled
dossiers
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had
hired
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of
their
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that,
either
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any
reputation,
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this?
Because
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
Ethical Egoist
2004-03-02 03:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Maybe u should ask Tay Siow Wah, he has a better figure, I'm new bird here.
Post by ardeedee
How many you think are "us".
Post by Ethical Egoist
He can't be keeping track on everyone here, especially those who keep
changing their nick often. Also, the Istana isn't large enough to gather
all
Post by Ethical Egoist
of us.
Post by kilometric
Does LKY has dossier on SCS posters ?
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important
personages
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed
dossiers
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
any
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the
"book"
Post by Ethical Egoist
at
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
their
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how
detailed
Post by ardeedee
it
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the
previous
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of
your
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
life
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the
modern
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence
sources
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
can
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily
activities
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any
PAP
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
leader
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the
Pilots
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there
is
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
now
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was
Tay
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of
staff
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the
objectivity
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred
to
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
ISD.
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to
intimidate
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY
can
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled
dossiers
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible,
this
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had
hired
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of
their
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that,
either
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail
and
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his
to
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he
will
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private
lives
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any
reputation,
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this?
Because
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
ardeedee
2004-03-02 03:31:15 UTC
Permalink
From his grave - you are new to Singapore also ?
Post by Ethical Egoist
Maybe u should ask Tay Siow Wah, he has a better figure, I'm new bird here.
Post by ardeedee
How many you think are "us".
Post by Ethical Egoist
He can't be keeping track on everyone here, especially those who keep
changing their nick often. Also, the Istana isn't large enough to gather
all
Post by Ethical Egoist
of us.
Post by kilometric
Does LKY has dossier on SCS posters ?
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important
personages
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed
dossiers
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
any
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the
"book"
Post by Ethical Egoist
at
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
their
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how
detailed
Post by ardeedee
it
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the
previous
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of
your
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
life
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the
modern
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence
sources
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
can
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily
activities
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any
PAP
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
leader
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth
the
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Pilots
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as
the
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get
one
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there
is
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
now
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s
was
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Tay
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in
/c
Post by Ethical Egoist
of
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
staff
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the
objectivity
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence
department.
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred
to
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
ISD.
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to
intimidate
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY
can
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in
effect
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled
dossiers
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible,
this
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had
hired
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of
their
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that,
either
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail
and
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his
to
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying,
in
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he
will
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private
lives
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any
reputation,
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to
suffer
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends,
cause
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this?
Because
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
Ethical Egoist
2004-03-02 03:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Who knows I might be joining him soon, maybe I'll ask him for you if I bum
into him. But not sure how to let you know, maybe in your dreams then.
Post by ardeedee
From his grave - you are new to Singapore also ?
Post by Ethical Egoist
Maybe u should ask Tay Siow Wah, he has a better figure, I'm new bird
here.
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
How many you think are "us".
Post by Ethical Egoist
He can't be keeping track on everyone here, especially those who keep
changing their nick often. Also, the Istana isn't large enough to
gather
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
all
Post by Ethical Egoist
of us.
Post by kilometric
Does LKY has dossier on SCS posters ?
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important
personages
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed
dossiers
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
any
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the
"book"
Post by Ethical Egoist
at
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
their
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them
how
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
detailed
Post by ardeedee
it
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the
previous
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret
details
Post by ardeedee
of
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
your
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
life
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the
modern
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence
sources
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
can
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your
daily
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
activities
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross
any
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
PAP
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
leader
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth
the
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Pilots
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as
the
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get
one
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and
there
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
is
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
now
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s
was
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Tay
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in
/c
Post by Ethical Egoist
of
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
staff
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he
was
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the
objectivity
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence
department.
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management
transferred
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
to
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
ISD.
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to
intimidate
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that
LKY
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
can
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of
them.
Post by ardeedee
By
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in
effect
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled
dossiers
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible,
this
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they
had
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
hired
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus,
this
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with
threatened
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives
of
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
their
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had
committed
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that,
either
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By
blackmail
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of
his
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
to
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying,
in
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him,
he
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
will
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private
lives
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any
reputation,
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to
suffer
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends,
cause
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them
to
Post by ardeedee
be
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by ardeedee
Post by Ethical Egoist
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this?
Because
Post by kilometric
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
ardeedee
2004-03-02 02:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Nonentities like you do not count - but ahem I would not say that for yours
truly.
Post by kilometric
Does LKY has dossier on SCS posters ?
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are
maintained
Post by kilometric
on
Post by ardeedee
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important personages
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
It has been a tried and tested ploy of LKY to have detailed dossiers
on
Post by ardeedee
any
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and every individual he confronts.
In the early 60s he used to break the unions by throwing the "book" at
their
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
leaders being the intelligence dossiers and impress on them how
detailed
Post by ardeedee
it
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
is by simply giving anecdotes on where certain people were the
previous
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
night.
You cannot match up to an opponent who has the secret details of your
life
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
in his hands while you basically know nothing anbout him.
The intelligence sources were that good before - but with the modern
listening devices and technological marvels, the intelligence sources
can
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
listen in without even planting bugs or keep up with your daily
activities
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
without having to trail you.
Hence be forewarned and take note that if you want to cross any PAP
leader
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
you must have spotless life and clean living.
this just raises one more question ; is it not more
pertinent to have dossiers on their own ranks ! thus
the loyalty would be absolute !?..
than should their own cadres or rank breaks faith than such
dossiers could be used against them to buy their silence !?
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
You cannot blame the management etc for any difficulties wth the
Pilots
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
as
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
in such cases one management executive will be singled out as the
scapegoat
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
and the Pilots will also be satisifed as they managed to get one
management
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
head to roll - wonder who is the biggest head to roll?
Intelligence gathering -have you not heard of the ISD and there is
now
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
one
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
other intelligence gathering unit in the SAF.?
The person who was appointed to head the ISD back in the 60s was Tay
Siow
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
Wah ( father of NMP Simon Tay) who was the Staff Manager in /c of
staff
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
relations in PSA for some years and suddenly on one move he was
appointed
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
the ISD chief by LKY with no known Police or ISD experience.
He was however a super appointee in many ways as he had the
objectivity
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
and
Post by Robert Ho
Post by ardeedee
vision and incisive mind to head such an Intelligence department.
In a few years you may hear of an ex SIA management transferred to
ISD.
Post by ardeedee
Post by STRAIGHTS TIMED
Post by ardeedee
Post by Robert Ho
RH: The whole essence of this so-called 'meeting' is to intimidate
all the pilots by proving to them in no uncertain terms that LKY can
compile a very complete dossier on each and everyone of them. By
proving he knew almost everything about Capt Goh, he was in effect
telling all the others that he could or had already compiled dossiers
on all of them and since human beings are completely fallible, this
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
prostitutes, gambled or have a alcohol problem, etc. Thus, this
so-called meeting is to blackmail all the pilots with threatened
exposure of their private lives. Including the private lives of their
families and loved ones. Thus, if Capt Goh's wife had committed
adultery, LKY could gleefully and deliberately exploited that, either
through direct communication to the newspapers or through his
grapevine. Thus, this is the true way LKY operates. By blackmail and
threats and intimidation. LKY has honed this nasty weapon of his to
perfection and uses it at the least provocation. He is saying, in
effect, that if any of the pilots do not play ball with him, he will
dish out all the dirt from their private lives and the private lives
of their families and loved ones. Thus, he could wreck any reputation,
smear any of their loved ones, even cause their children to suffer
from bad publicity in their schools and among their friends, cause
their friends to desert or stay away from them, cause them to be
objects of humiliation and gossip. And how do I know all this? Because
it has already happened to me and my loved ones.
Fox Mulder
2004-03-04 08:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ardeedee
LKY has dossiers on all his Ministers and MPs and dossiers are maintained on
all civil servants above a certain rank with the more important personages
having thicker files and with more frequent reports and entries.
even his own sons, daughter, in-laws, siblings.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Da Truth Iz Out Dere
Fox Mulder
2004-03-04 08:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Ho
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
not forgetting that having all those information, it would be very easy
to fabricate false "evidence" by corroborating with actual data, and
thus intertwining truth with lies so convincely that no laymen can
unravel.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Da Truth Iz Out Dere
Fox Mulder
2004-03-07 20:05:33 UTC
Permalink
See how the intimidation is at work: now the poor chap is going to lose his PR status,
all because of the ego of one senile fellow.
Post by Fox Mulder
Post by Robert Ho
means that LKY could publicise or start gossip about all their
misdeeds, including infidelity to their wives, whether they had hired
not forgetting that having all those information, it would be very easy
to fabricate false "evidence" by corroborating with actual data, and
thus intertwining truth with lies so convincely that no laymen can
unravel.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Da Truth Iz Out Dere
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Da Truth Iz Out Dere

Observer
2004-03-02 10:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by MADCOW
SM has all his facts gathered most probably by his intelligence unit, all on
one man, Capt Goh. Capt Goh has done nothing illegal and most probably
that's why they couldn't nail him down, legally.
I think this guy should be given a medal
instead for daring to expose the rot within
the system. If he did not...no one will have
known about those "daft" management.

Another thing is that if he kept quiet....even
the union chaps back then was willing to work
with the management to "sweep eveything under
the floor". We need whistleblowers who ore
not afraid to expose the weaknesses in our system.
Hence it would be wrong to penalise him unless he
did break any law.
Post by MADCOW
It could mean that SM believes whatever information the management has
provided him.
This is a problem I was afraid of.
Back in fuedal times...the emperors were
swayed by unscrupulous officials who gave
them bad advice.
We all know what happened to all those
feudal dynasties.

Civil servants are employees....no matter
who they are.
Would you trust your employees a hundred
percent and let him rum your business without
counter checking every once in a while?

Employees need supervision to peorform.
This includes all those highly paid morons
thats making bullshitting a way to make a living.
MADCOW
2004-03-02 11:19:57 UTC
Permalink
Our Nation, or particularly PAP govt, doesn't appreciate dissidents,
alternative views and diversity. They are not "trained" to handle such
situation but have only one so called "effective" solution is to bash the
hell out of those who opposed.

Even when it is apparent that the majority within the boundary shows
defiance against PAP people, they always have this mindset that it must be a
"conspircay" and try to get rid of those who effect such defiance. This
happen in politics whereby JBJ and other politicians were quickly dealt with
even when it is apparent that many people supported them. This disrespectful
of popular will is glaring.

For the case of Alpha S, even if there is one instigator like Capt Goh, if
there aren't any problems with the whole system, others wouldn't do what
they did, in defiant of the management. Thus, instead of looking at the
problem at large, the first response is to threaten the leaders and "kill
the monkey for the chicken to be feared".

This is the glaring outdated attitude towards popular will and dissidents.
We are here to sort out a better life for everybody, a better future for our
children and a better balanced, fairer system for everyone. Threating
dissidents like criminals that need ISD monitoring is absurd.

MADCOW
Post by Observer
Post by MADCOW
SM has all his facts gathered most probably by his intelligence unit,
all
Post by Observer
on
Post by MADCOW
one man, Capt Goh. Capt Goh has done nothing illegal and most probably
that's why they couldn't nail him down, legally.
I think this guy should be given a medal
instead for daring to expose the rot within
the system. If he did not...no one will have
known about those "daft" management.
Another thing is that if he kept quiet....even
the union chaps back then was willing to work
with the management to "sweep eveything under
the floor". We need whistleblowers who ore
not afraid to expose the weaknesses in our system.
Hence it would be wrong to penalise him unless he
did break any law.
Post by MADCOW
It could mean that SM believes whatever information the management has
provided him.
This is a problem I was afraid of.
Back in fuedal times...the emperors were
swayed by unscrupulous officials who gave
them bad advice.
We all know what happened to all those
feudal dynasties.
Civil servants are employees....no matter
who they are.
Would you trust your employees a hundred
percent and let him rum your business without
counter checking every once in a while?
Employees need supervision to peorform.
This includes all those highly paid morons
thats making bullshitting a way to make a living.
Bandit
2004-03-02 14:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Well done! Clap clap!
Post by MADCOW
You must hand it to SM. He is really a politician. No other ministers or PAP
politicians could have done it better.
However, after having saying that, we should start worrying for Singapore.
Remember what happened in Nee Soon Central? We need our nearly 80 year old
SM to settle the problems of the temples, basically a grassroot and local
problem. Now, we need our SM to settle the problem of industrial
relationship. We seem to need SM everywhere, from small to big problems!
Even assuming we would have SM living up to 100 years old, do we really need
him for another 20 years to solve all these big and small problems? And from
the look of SIA saga, I think there is something quite interesting but
missing.
SM has all his facts gathered most probably by his intelligence unit, all on
one man, Capt Goh. Capt Goh has done nothing illegal and most probably
that's why they couldn't nail him down, legally. But the information is
carefully crafted to make Capt Goh looks bad. From the revealation of the
details, it seems that alot of work has been done on Capt Goh, even know the
very details of how his child dislike school in Australia. This could only
be done by listening or eavesdropping into family converstaions.
Thus, it seems that right from the start, the selection of targets have been
made. I do believe that there are multiple targets selected and Capt Goh was
featured due to his shift to Austrialia. It took them months to come up with
such details.
Ironically, SM did not send people spying on the organization of SIA itself;
why are there defiant unionists out to make trouble?! The ignorance of SM
over the various practices by SIA management that have caused grievances
among the employees, pilots and including all other NTUC unions is such a
glaring inadequacy of his intelligence gathering. It means that right from
the start, the first footing of intelligence gathering is already flawed.
It could mean that SM believes whatever information the management has
provided him. SM is afterall, the boss of the biggest shareholder of SIA,
GIC via Termasek. It is good for a boss to trust his management team, but
when there is apparently something wrong with the system, it is better to do
some information gathering from the ground. That's how those extraordinary
emperors of the past govern their empires, reaching out the ground by
walking it on "plain cloths". You can't always trust the words of those who
have a stake in the whole matter....you don't expect them to tell you that
they have really screwed up this time, right?
This little inadequacy has demonstrated the bigger problem at hand. Despite
having the so call "Feedback Unit" or Unions under NTUC, people are not
honest of the true happenings on the ground, for whatever fear or reasons
they have. Information gets distorted and all dirty bad things have been
swept under the carpet while the game of pushing blame takes place.
SIA HR problems have started a few years back. If SIA is such an important
entity of our economy, such strained industrial relationship caused by
mismanagement should not go unnoticed for such a long period! SIA HR
problems were even raised here several times in the past few years!
I think management teams of GLCs like SIA thought that they have a free hand
to shove unfavourable terms to its employess just because PAP govt has
always been stressing to the unions and Singaporeans that we should
"compromise", "cut pay" and stuffs like that to keep companies afloat and
profitable. They feel that they have the upper hand in bargaining and could
possibly do whatever they want with the backing of a strong govt. They could
possibly shove unfavourable terms to union and say, take it or leave it.
They are confident that if the company cannot perform, they could always
blame on high cost and use the employees' benefits as sarcrifice on the
sacred alter of cost cutting. Such off-balance management is happening
everywhere.
SIA is the only the first entity under govt controlled to have such strained
industrial-labour relationship to surface, thanks or no thanks to a strong
independent union. SM should thank Alpha S for highlighting such problems
early and do some reflections on other GLCs. If the widespread problems are
not capped at its infancy, it will come to a breaking point that everything
will fail. And by then, SM may not even be there to save the day.
Singaporeans are not only feeling the stress of the prospect of being
unemployed. They are facing the stress that their company's management are
putting on them, taking full advantage of strong govt backing in actions as
well as words, and a weak economy. There is one suicide everyday in
Singapore but nobody borders to ask why or do some investigations and study
into it.
We should fear for Singapore's future. Even with SM around, the creeping
problem of mismanagement is still so widespread. What will become of
Singapore with his eventual demise?
MADCOW
Post by Ethical Egoist
I think Capt. Goh should answer like this to sm, that sm and family too
have
Post by Ethical Egoist
houses and lands in australia and when the country goes down will he raise
from your grave and will his family stay? Also, I think he is much concern
of the 38 pilots that have left, otherwise he wouldn't have conducted the
meeting, although he gave much excuses about why an sm was involved in
such
Post by Ethical Egoist
matters. Noticed, he doesn't really know why pilots were unhappy, such as
"overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes", his years in
politics delude his mind that everyone is out to bring down his country or
his wealth making machine.
Finally, such meetings are usually one sided, I think Capt. Mok by now
should feel after the meeting that he have got nothing out of it and maybe
made a ass or a publicity out of his expense and made sm look more popular
that he is willing to listen. There is a term in this in psychology and it
is call "Tragedy of the Commons". I think Capt. Koh did felt the deja vu
there.
Bad Boy
2004-03-03 14:45:55 UTC
Permalink
A well balance post. Well done.

Just one correction.
It is not as simple as mere mismanagement, I understand,
which started with the arrival of the new chairman (scholars)
and a certain LG a couple of years ago.
The whole SIA culture carefully nurtured by JYM Pillay and
Dr. Cheong over decades was destroyed overnight.
They replaced the culture of "pursuit of excellence", of "service
other airline talk about" and "complete trust between union
and management" with a new culture of FEAR and DISTRUST.
This symptoms of illnes have surfaced as low moral, lack of
communications...The cancer is deep down at the core.

One example as an illustration.
For any changes to long established HR policy, JMY
Pillay, his CEO, all VPs, the management staff would
take pain to inform the Unions, explained to all the staff down
to baggage loaders.
Every member of the staff was treated as a valuable
member of the SIA team. They would carefully listen to feedback ,
if any, then make a formal announcement of the change. It was the
SIA way and the Baggage hand was proud to be a team
player.
Since the arrival of the new chairman, all staff including
management staff would not know about important changes.
They have to read about the changes from the media or hear it
from the Minister visiting SIA. It is easy to put the blame on
middle management. But bug is much higher, at the top.
This in itself is changed. The old SIA culture did not
not point finger or find scapegoat.

LKY has managed to cure the immediate symptom, the
industrial relation problem. He is not aware of the rotting core
brought by the new virus. The Unions and CEO Chew
are helpless to pull the SIA flight out of the nose dive to
destruction.

Bad boy.
Post by MADCOW
You must hand it to SM. He is really a politician. No other ministers or PAP
politicians could have done it better.
However, after having saying that, we should start worrying for Singapore.
Remember what happened in Nee Soon Central? We need our nearly 80 year old
SM to settle the problems of the temples, basically a grassroot and local
problem. Now, we need our SM to settle the problem of industrial
relationship. We seem to need SM everywhere, from small to big problems!
Even assuming we would have SM living up to 100 years old, do we really need
him for another 20 years to solve all these big and small problems? And from
the look of SIA saga, I think there is something quite interesting but
missing.
SM has all his facts gathered most probably by his intelligence unit, all on
one man, Capt Goh. Capt Goh has done nothing illegal and most probably
that's why they couldn't nail him down, legally. But the information is
carefully crafted to make Capt Goh looks bad. From the revealation of the
details, it seems that alot of work has been done on Capt Goh, even know the
very details of how his child dislike school in Australia. This could only
be done by listening or eavesdropping into family converstaions.
Thus, it seems that right from the start, the selection of targets have been
made. I do believe that there are multiple targets selected and Capt Goh was
featured due to his shift to Austrialia. It took them months to come up with
such details.
Ironically, SM did not send people spying on the organization of SIA itself;
why are there defiant unionists out to make trouble?! The ignorance of SM
over the various practices by SIA management that have caused grievances
among the employees, pilots and including all other NTUC unions is such a
glaring inadequacy of his intelligence gathering. It means that right from
the start, the first footing of intelligence gathering is already flawed.
It could mean that SM believes whatever information the management has
provided him. SM is afterall, the boss of the biggest shareholder of SIA,
GIC via Termasek. It is good for a boss to trust his management team, but
when there is apparently something wrong with the system, it is better to do
some information gathering from the ground. That's how those extraordinary
emperors of the past govern their empires, reaching out the ground by
walking it on "plain cloths". You can't always trust the words of those who
have a stake in the whole matter....you don't expect them to tell you that
they have really screwed up this time, right?
This little inadequacy has demonstrated the bigger problem at hand. Despite
having the so call "Feedback Unit" or Unions under NTUC, people are not
honest of the true happenings on the ground, for whatever fear or reasons
they have. Information gets distorted and all dirty bad things have been
swept under the carpet while the game of pushing blame takes place.
SIA HR problems have started a few years back. If SIA is such an important
entity of our economy, such strained industrial relationship caused by
mismanagement should not go unnoticed for such a long period! SIA HR
problems were even raised here several times in the past few years!
I think management teams of GLCs like SIA thought that they have a free hand
to shove unfavourable terms to its employess just because PAP govt has
always been stressing to the unions and Singaporeans that we should
"compromise", "cut pay" and stuffs like that to keep companies afloat and
profitable. They feel that they have the upper hand in bargaining and could
possibly do whatever they want with the backing of a strong govt. They could
possibly shove unfavourable terms to union and say, take it or leave it.
They are confident that if the company cannot perform, they could always
blame on high cost and use the employees' benefits as sarcrifice on the
sacred alter of cost cutting. Such off-balance management is happening
everywhere.
SIA is the only the first entity under govt controlled to have such strained
industrial-labour relationship to surface, thanks or no thanks to a strong
independent union. SM should thank Alpha S for highlighting such problems
early and do some reflections on other GLCs. If the widespread problems are
not capped at its infancy, it will come to a breaking point that everything
will fail. And by then, SM may not even be there to save the day.
Singaporeans are not only feeling the stress of the prospect of being
unemployed. They are facing the stress that their company's management are
putting on them, taking full advantage of strong govt backing in actions as
well as words, and a weak economy. There is one suicide everyday in
Singapore but nobody borders to ask why or do some investigations and study
into it.
We should fear for Singapore's future. Even with SM around, the creeping
problem of mismanagement is still so widespread. What will become of
Singapore with his eventual demise?
MADCOW
Post by Ethical Egoist
I think Capt. Goh should answer like this to sm, that sm and family too
have
Post by Ethical Egoist
houses and lands in australia and when the country goes down will he raise
from your grave and will his family stay? Also, I think he is much concern
of the 38 pilots that have left, otherwise he wouldn't have conducted the
meeting, although he gave much excuses about why an sm was involved in
such
Post by Ethical Egoist
matters. Noticed, he doesn't really know why pilots were unhappy, such as
"overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes", his years in
politics delude his mind that everyone is out to bring down his country or
his wealth making machine.
Finally, such meetings are usually one sided, I think Capt. Mok by now
should feel after the meeting that he have got nothing out of it and maybe
made a ass or a publicity out of his expense and made sm look more popular
that he is willing to listen. There is a term in this in psychology and it
is call "Tragedy of the Commons". I think Capt. Koh did felt the deja vu
there.
Ironm@n
2004-03-01 00:14:30 UTC
Permalink
The place and settings (Istana) looks intimidating enough.

Those pilots were just like school boys in their principal office, waiting
to be bashed ....and helpless.
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
---
SM's meeting with pilots: What happened at the Istana
ST 29/2/2004
By Zuraidah Ibrahim
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you.' -- SM Lee Kuan Yew
AS THE guests stepped into the pristine hallways of the Istana last Thursday
afternoon, it was clear from their expectant faces that they were not there
on one of those routine diplomatic goodwill visits.
This was no courtesy call.
The 14 Singapore Airlines pilots - a carefully selected mix of unionists
ousted from leadership last November and their successors - were first
ushered into a drawing room.
Some sat armed with files. Others waited with folded arms. Eventually, they
were shepherded up to the chandelier-draped Sheares Room. Several paused at
the bottom of the stairs, staring curiously through glass doors into a
roomful of journalists.
Upstairs, they were about to face the man who had served them a series of
public rebukes over the past few months.
He was after 'the principals and the ringleaders' behind the ouster of the
union leadership, he had said.
'If they play this game, there will be broken heads,' he said on another
occasion.
'Think carefully,' he cautioned them later, suspecting that the pilots were
on a collision course with management.
That Thursday afternoon, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew began with an
explanation.
'I decided to take up this issue since I've been involved with Singapore
Airlines from the start,' he said.
In case the pilots needed reminding, he pointed out that it was he who had
secured the pact for SIA's first and most lucrative route then to London. It
was he who had asked for Changi to be built, despite expert studies
favouring Paya Lebar. It was he who had seen the airline through its
turbulent early years.
'So,' he said, 'I have no intention for it to go down'.
If the pilots had anticipated facing an uncompromising force, they were
right.
But if they had feared that this determination would extend to siding
completely with SIA's management, they were wrong.
Instead, he gave his word, several times, that SIA management would be put
right.
'There will be no sacred cows,' he said, meaning this clearing of the way of
past agreements and positions would probably apply equally to the union as
it would to management.
In the two-hour exchange that followed, he also gave them a tutorial on
industrial relations, what it meant to be an effective union, and the
importance of non-confrontational, cooperative labour-management relations
within Singapore's formula for success.
He came to power on the back of union support, he recounted to those in need
of a history lesson. As a lawyer new to politics, he had done work for
unions for free. His pro-union credentials were as unimpeachable as his
pro-business record, he appeared to be saying.
But what he could not countenance was an adversarial relationship that could
bring Singapore down.
Thus, he reasoned with the delegation, to win their minds rather than break
their heads.
First, however, there was a reading of the riot act to one Captain Ryan Goh.
The master politician was at work.
You were the prime mover, were you not, behind the machinations to vote
against the union leadership, he asked.
This, even though you were on the very council of the Air Line Pilots
Association-Singapore (Alpa-S)?
That fateful ouster was what had brought the pilots that afternoon to the
Istana.
Alpa-S - which guards jealously its status as an independent union that
stays out of the tripartite loop - booted out its leaders after rueing the
wage cuts that they had accepted and members had earlier endorsed.
The pilots agreed to the lower pay during the Sars outbreak when the airline
was bleeding. But after it made a stunning turnaround a quarter later, a
whispering campaign began about the union being weak. The larger battle
ahead - negotiating a new collective agreement then in its last days -
needed stronger stomachs, the sentiment went.
Reading from a file, Mr Lee pulled out the following facts about Captain
Goh.
A Malaysian with permanent residence status here, he had accepted Australian
PR in 2002, moved his wife and children to Perth, shipped his car and sold
his flat.
You told someone from IE Singapore that the grass had stopped growing in
Singapore, did you not, he asked.
He turned to one of the pilots and asked if he knew the Malaysian had bought
a house in Australia and had this option to bail out.
No, the person answered.
'No?' repeated Mr Lee.
'That's deception, isn't it?' he asked Capt Goh.
The pilot in the hot seat tried to defend himself but it was too late. The
line in the sand between him and the Singaporeans had been drawn for him.
'My daughter is still in school here,' he tried saying, adding this showed
he still had roots in Singapore.
But wasn't that because she did not like school in Australia and came back,
Mr Lee shot back calmly.
Silence.
The castigation, no doubt a tactic of divide-and-rule, also established a
more significant point: It is not up to PRs or other foreigners to get into
union matters and play around with decisions that affect the rest of
Singaporeans.
Capt Goh had tried to undermine the interests of SIA and Singapore, he said.
'If Singapore goes down, you go down,' he told the Singaporeans across the
table. 'He doesn't go down.'
With that out of the way, he laid out what he wanted to achieve out of the
meeting: a fresh start.
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you,' he told them.
'Tell me whether we can cooperate.'
Yes, they could tell him one thing and act another way, but he was not
interested in that.
'I don't hold you to blame for everything. Nor is the management responsible
for all the things that have gone wrong. 'I want to create a new partnership
of trust and cooperation, not confrontation,' he said.
The pilots needed to understand what was at stake. When members ousted their
leaders, their actions jarred and suggested they were clueless about the
environment they operated in: An economy on the remake trying to ease its
cost pressures and an aviation industry that will be forever changed by the
wringer it went through these last few years.
SIA did not need hostile industrial relations that would weigh it down at a
time when the connectivity that the airline and Changi provided was facing
intense competition. Without that connectivity that other parts of the
economy were premised upon, Singapore would suffer.
'So it puzzles me. Pilots are intelligent people. How is it you are out of
touch?' he asked rhetorically.
It was partly because, someone had told him, he said, pilots were out of the
country half the time. Partly also, they were out of the know because they
were not under the National Trades Union Congress, which would have kept
members apprised of the slightest twitch of its trouble-on-the-horizon
barometer.
Whatever the case, he set the parameters for future moves.
All National Wages Council recommendations must be accepted if the airline
was to achieve flexibility and nimbleness to outlast the competition.
Wages would have to be as variable as possible. Profit-sharing must factor
in return on capital. Retrenchment benefits must be capped at 25 years.
Medical benefits would no longer be fully paid for, a bitter pill almost all
Singaporean workers have already swallowed, some as far back as a decade
ago.
But all these changes did not mean the pilots were being sold down the
river. They will be paid market rates and when there are extras, they will
get more, he explained.
'Now, I want to hear what you have to say,' he said after an hour.
Over the next, the pilots vented their grievances, imploring for
understanding.
Captain Mok Hin Choon, the new president of Alpa-S, said the company had to
reflect and see if it could bring along its people, pointing out that even
its NTUC-related unions were unhappy.
'Trust has been missing for the last few years,' he said, adding that 'it
takes two hands to clap'.
Out of the bag leapt their biggest bugbear - the overseas-based pilots. The
company kept rebuffing their proposals to relook the scheme which they said
was inefficient, wasteful and resulted in rostering that left them with
scraps while their overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes.
Flight operations was in charge, came the reply, when Mr Lee asked who was
behind it all if they were right about the matter.
'If all this is true, then the flight operations must be blind or stupid!
... I want an explanation from them because I cannot believe this,' he said.
'You give me a paper, I will look at it.'
He promised the human resources of the airline would be revamped and urged
the pilots to give new chief executive officer Chew Choon Seng a chance.
As trust was rebuilt, there should be more information sharing so both sides
could work together.
They told him 38 pilots had left in recent months. Where were they going, he
wanted to know.
There will be changes, he said.
'I am assuring you that the Government will make sure that SIA acts in good
faith,' he said.
Mr Lee went on to answer one of the main questions on the minds of
Singaporeans: Why did the Government need to intervene in an internal
company matter? 'We are the majority owners and we will ensure that they act
in the interest of the country, and the interest of the country requires
cooperation, trust and confidence from the unions.'
Why did it have to be the Senior Minister?
As he explained it, he had dealt with the airline from the beginning, it was
fair he saw to it that the restive relationship between the pilots in the
early years still continuing today, end.
But he was also realistic enough to concede this much: The residual feelings
of suspicion would still be there.
Capt Mok too made this plain enough when he told the media later Alpa-S was
not ready to embrace NTUC.
But yes, he and the others pledged to work on a clean slate, work in
partnership with management and give things a go. They would use the
negotiations for the new collective agreement as a time for
trust-building.
Post by XiaoMei
By the end of it, it felt as if the fog of suspicion that had settled
between Government and Alpa-S these past months had a good chance of
lifting.
As the press walked in at the tail end of the meeting and posed questions,
Captain Mok insisted on looking forward, vowing to make a clean start.
Details of difficulties with management? No, he wasn't keen on hitting the
headlines with that.
Details of demands? No, not keen either.
Management should thank him for closing the books thus.
The meeting ended with handshakes all around, even with the solemn-looking
Capt Goh.
If there was any sense of deja vu in the room, Captain Freddie Koh must have
felt it most.
He was among a posse of union pilots Mr Lee summoned to the Istana in 1980
for daring to fan a go-slow action to vent their disgruntlement over pay and
work conditions.
He told them then in unvarnished language: 'I do not want to do you in but I
will not let anyone do Singapore in.'
When trouble with Alpa-S began, Mr Lee said he wanted to clean up on the
restiveness that was resurfacing. 'This is a job that has to be finished and
I'll finish it.'
Thursday afternoon moved towards that conclusion.
Looking back, throughout it all, the Senior Minister in effect employed the
familiar strategy of good cop, bad cop. Except that he played both roles.
Now that he and the Government have said their piece and the pilots have
made peace, SIA needs to break its deafening silence. Soon.
DI DA DI
2004-03-01 04:35:52 UTC
Permalink
You know why the meeting is held in the Istana and not elsewhere?

In order to win handsomely, you have to hold meeting in your turf. When they
come to your turf to negotiate, it means they have to listen to you even
they disagree with you. This is an art of management - an art taken from Sun
Zhi Art of war techniques.
Post by ***@n
The place and settings (Istana) looks intimidating enough.
Those pilots were just like school boys in their principal office, waiting
to be bashed ....and helpless.
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
---
SM's meeting with pilots: What happened at the Istana
ST 29/2/2004
By Zuraidah Ibrahim
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you.' -- SM Lee Kuan Yew
AS THE guests stepped into the pristine hallways of the Istana last
Thursday
Post by XiaoMei
afternoon, it was clear from their expectant faces that they were not
there
Post by XiaoMei
on one of those routine diplomatic goodwill visits.
This was no courtesy call.
The 14 Singapore Airlines pilots - a carefully selected mix of unionists
ousted from leadership last November and their successors - were first
ushered into a drawing room.
Some sat armed with files. Others waited with folded arms. Eventually,
they
Post by XiaoMei
were shepherded up to the chandelier-draped Sheares Room. Several paused
at
Post by XiaoMei
the bottom of the stairs, staring curiously through glass doors into a
roomful of journalists.
Upstairs, they were about to face the man who had served them a series of
public rebukes over the past few months.
He was after 'the principals and the ringleaders' behind the ouster of the
union leadership, he had said.
'If they play this game, there will be broken heads,' he said on another
occasion.
'Think carefully,' he cautioned them later, suspecting that the pilots
were
Post by XiaoMei
on a collision course with management.
That Thursday afternoon, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew began with an
explanation.
'I decided to take up this issue since I've been involved with Singapore
Airlines from the start,' he said.
In case the pilots needed reminding, he pointed out that it was he who had
secured the pact for SIA's first and most lucrative route then to
London.
Post by ***@n
It
Post by XiaoMei
was he who had asked for Changi to be built, despite expert studies
favouring Paya Lebar. It was he who had seen the airline through its
turbulent early years.
'So,' he said, 'I have no intention for it to go down'.
If the pilots had anticipated facing an uncompromising force, they were
right.
But if they had feared that this determination would extend to siding
completely with SIA's management, they were wrong.
Instead, he gave his word, several times, that SIA management would be put
right.
'There will be no sacred cows,' he said, meaning this clearing of the
way
Post by ***@n
of
Post by XiaoMei
past agreements and positions would probably apply equally to the union as
it would to management.
In the two-hour exchange that followed, he also gave them a tutorial on
industrial relations, what it meant to be an effective union, and the
importance of non-confrontational, cooperative labour-management relations
within Singapore's formula for success.
He came to power on the back of union support, he recounted to those in
need
Post by XiaoMei
of a history lesson. As a lawyer new to politics, he had done work for
unions for free. His pro-union credentials were as unimpeachable as his
pro-business record, he appeared to be saying.
But what he could not countenance was an adversarial relationship that
could
Post by XiaoMei
bring Singapore down.
Thus, he reasoned with the delegation, to win their minds rather than
break
Post by XiaoMei
their heads.
First, however, there was a reading of the riot act to one Captain Ryan
Goh.
Post by XiaoMei
The master politician was at work.
You were the prime mover, were you not, behind the machinations to vote
against the union leadership, he asked.
This, even though you were on the very council of the Air Line Pilots
Association-Singapore (Alpa-S)?
That fateful ouster was what had brought the pilots that afternoon to the
Istana.
Alpa-S - which guards jealously its status as an independent union that
stays out of the tripartite loop - booted out its leaders after rueing the
wage cuts that they had accepted and members had earlier endorsed.
The pilots agreed to the lower pay during the Sars outbreak when the
airline
Post by XiaoMei
was bleeding. But after it made a stunning turnaround a quarter later, a
whispering campaign began about the union being weak. The larger battle
ahead - negotiating a new collective agreement then in its last days -
needed stronger stomachs, the sentiment went.
Reading from a file, Mr Lee pulled out the following facts about Captain
Goh.
A Malaysian with permanent residence status here, he had accepted
Australian
Post by XiaoMei
PR in 2002, moved his wife and children to Perth, shipped his car and sold
his flat.
You told someone from IE Singapore that the grass had stopped growing in
Singapore, did you not, he asked.
He turned to one of the pilots and asked if he knew the Malaysian had
bought
Post by XiaoMei
a house in Australia and had this option to bail out.
No, the person answered.
'No?' repeated Mr Lee.
'That's deception, isn't it?' he asked Capt Goh.
The pilot in the hot seat tried to defend himself but it was too late. The
line in the sand between him and the Singaporeans had been drawn for him.
'My daughter is still in school here,' he tried saying, adding this showed
he still had roots in Singapore.
But wasn't that because she did not like school in Australia and came
back,
Post by XiaoMei
Mr Lee shot back calmly.
Silence.
The castigation, no doubt a tactic of divide-and-rule, also established a
more significant point: It is not up to PRs or other foreigners to get
into
Post by XiaoMei
union matters and play around with decisions that affect the rest of
Singaporeans.
Capt Goh had tried to undermine the interests of SIA and Singapore, he
said.
Post by XiaoMei
'If Singapore goes down, you go down,' he told the Singaporeans across the
table. 'He doesn't go down.'
With that out of the way, he laid out what he wanted to achieve out of the
meeting: a fresh start.
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you,' he told them.
'Tell me whether we can cooperate.'
Yes, they could tell him one thing and act another way, but he was not
interested in that.
'I don't hold you to blame for everything. Nor is the management
responsible
Post by XiaoMei
for all the things that have gone wrong. 'I want to create a new
partnership
Post by XiaoMei
of trust and cooperation, not confrontation,' he said.
The pilots needed to understand what was at stake. When members ousted
their
Post by XiaoMei
leaders, their actions jarred and suggested they were clueless about the
environment they operated in: An economy on the remake trying to ease its
cost pressures and an aviation industry that will be forever changed by
the
Post by XiaoMei
wringer it went through these last few years.
SIA did not need hostile industrial relations that would weigh it down
at
Post by ***@n
a
Post by XiaoMei
time when the connectivity that the airline and Changi provided was facing
intense competition. Without that connectivity that other parts of the
economy were premised upon, Singapore would suffer.
'So it puzzles me. Pilots are intelligent people. How is it you are out of
touch?' he asked rhetorically.
It was partly because, someone had told him, he said, pilots were out of
the
Post by XiaoMei
country half the time. Partly also, they were out of the know because they
were not under the National Trades Union Congress, which would have kept
members apprised of the slightest twitch of its trouble-on-the-horizon
barometer.
Whatever the case, he set the parameters for future moves.
All National Wages Council recommendations must be accepted if the airline
was to achieve flexibility and nimbleness to outlast the competition.
Wages would have to be as variable as possible. Profit-sharing must factor
in return on capital. Retrenchment benefits must be capped at 25 years.
Medical benefits would no longer be fully paid for, a bitter pill almost
all
Post by XiaoMei
Singaporean workers have already swallowed, some as far back as a decade
ago.
But all these changes did not mean the pilots were being sold down the
river. They will be paid market rates and when there are extras, they will
get more, he explained.
'Now, I want to hear what you have to say,' he said after an hour.
Over the next, the pilots vented their grievances, imploring for
understanding.
Captain Mok Hin Choon, the new president of Alpa-S, said the company had
to
Post by XiaoMei
reflect and see if it could bring along its people, pointing out that even
its NTUC-related unions were unhappy.
'Trust has been missing for the last few years,' he said, adding that 'it
takes two hands to clap'.
Out of the bag leapt their biggest bugbear - the overseas-based pilots.
The
Post by XiaoMei
company kept rebuffing their proposals to relook the scheme which they
said
Post by XiaoMei
was inefficient, wasteful and resulted in rostering that left them with
scraps while their overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes.
Flight operations was in charge, came the reply, when Mr Lee asked who was
behind it all if they were right about the matter.
'If all this is true, then the flight operations must be blind or stupid!
... I want an explanation from them because I cannot believe this,' he
said.
Post by XiaoMei
'You give me a paper, I will look at it.'
He promised the human resources of the airline would be revamped and urged
the pilots to give new chief executive officer Chew Choon Seng a chance.
As trust was rebuilt, there should be more information sharing so both
sides
Post by XiaoMei
could work together.
They told him 38 pilots had left in recent months. Where were they
going,
Post by ***@n
he
Post by XiaoMei
wanted to know.
There will be changes, he said.
'I am assuring you that the Government will make sure that SIA acts in
good
Post by XiaoMei
faith,' he said.
Mr Lee went on to answer one of the main questions on the minds of
Singaporeans: Why did the Government need to intervene in an internal
company matter? 'We are the majority owners and we will ensure that they
act
Post by XiaoMei
in the interest of the country, and the interest of the country requires
cooperation, trust and confidence from the unions.'
Why did it have to be the Senior Minister?
As he explained it, he had dealt with the airline from the beginning, it
was
Post by XiaoMei
fair he saw to it that the restive relationship between the pilots in the
early years still continuing today, end.
But he was also realistic enough to concede this much: The residual
feelings
Post by XiaoMei
of suspicion would still be there.
Capt Mok too made this plain enough when he told the media later Alpa-S
was
Post by XiaoMei
not ready to embrace NTUC.
But yes, he and the others pledged to work on a clean slate, work in
partnership with management and give things a go. They would use the
negotiations for the new collective agreement as a time for
trust-building.
Post by XiaoMei
By the end of it, it felt as if the fog of suspicion that had settled
between Government and Alpa-S these past months had a good chance of
lifting.
As the press walked in at the tail end of the meeting and posed questions,
Captain Mok insisted on looking forward, vowing to make a clean start.
Details of difficulties with management? No, he wasn't keen on hitting the
headlines with that.
Details of demands? No, not keen either.
Management should thank him for closing the books thus.
The meeting ended with handshakes all around, even with the
solemn-looking
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
Capt Goh.
If there was any sense of deja vu in the room, Captain Freddie Koh must
have
Post by XiaoMei
felt it most.
He was among a posse of union pilots Mr Lee summoned to the Istana in 1980
for daring to fan a go-slow action to vent their disgruntlement over pay
and
Post by XiaoMei
work conditions.
He told them then in unvarnished language: 'I do not want to do you in
but
Post by ***@n
I
Post by XiaoMei
will not let anyone do Singapore in.'
When trouble with Alpa-S began, Mr Lee said he wanted to clean up on the
restiveness that was resurfacing. 'This is a job that has to be finished
and
Post by XiaoMei
I'll finish it.'
Thursday afternoon moved towards that conclusion.
Looking back, throughout it all, the Senior Minister in effect employed
the
Post by XiaoMei
familiar strategy of good cop, bad cop. Except that he played both roles.
Now that he and the Government have said their piece and the pilots have
made peace, SIA needs to break its deafening silence. Soon.
Rick
2004-03-01 08:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Art taken from Sun Ahi Art of War Technique!!!!
Which part of the art of war?
Post by DI DA DI
You know why the meeting is held in the Istana and not elsewhere?
In order to win handsomely, you have to hold meeting in your turf. When they
come to your turf to negotiate, it means they have to listen to you even
they disagree with you. This is an art of management - an art taken from Sun
Zhi Art of war techniques.
Post by ***@n
The place and settings (Istana) looks intimidating enough.
Those pilots were just like school boys in their principal office, waiting
to be bashed ....and helpless.
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
---
SM's meeting with pilots: What happened at the Istana
ST 29/2/2004
By Zuraidah Ibrahim
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you.' -- SM Lee Kuan Yew
AS THE guests stepped into the pristine hallways of the Istana last
Thursday
Post by XiaoMei
afternoon, it was clear from their expectant faces that they were not
there
Post by XiaoMei
on one of those routine diplomatic goodwill visits.
This was no courtesy call.
The 14 Singapore Airlines pilots - a carefully selected mix of unionists
ousted from leadership last November and their successors - were first
ushered into a drawing room.
Some sat armed with files. Others waited with folded arms. Eventually,
they
Post by XiaoMei
were shepherded up to the chandelier-draped Sheares Room. Several paused
at
Post by XiaoMei
the bottom of the stairs, staring curiously through glass doors into a
roomful of journalists.
Upstairs, they were about to face the man who had served them a series
of
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
public rebukes over the past few months.
He was after 'the principals and the ringleaders' behind the ouster of
the
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
union leadership, he had said.
'If they play this game, there will be broken heads,' he said on another
occasion.
'Think carefully,' he cautioned them later, suspecting that the pilots
were
Post by XiaoMei
on a collision course with management.
That Thursday afternoon, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew began with an
explanation.
'I decided to take up this issue since I've been involved with Singapore
Airlines from the start,' he said.
In case the pilots needed reminding, he pointed out that it was he who
had
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
secured the pact for SIA's first and most lucrative route then to
London.
Post by ***@n
It
Post by XiaoMei
was he who had asked for Changi to be built, despite expert studies
favouring Paya Lebar. It was he who had seen the airline through its
turbulent early years.
'So,' he said, 'I have no intention for it to go down'.
If the pilots had anticipated facing an uncompromising force, they were
right.
But if they had feared that this determination would extend to siding
completely with SIA's management, they were wrong.
Instead, he gave his word, several times, that SIA management would be
put
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
right.
'There will be no sacred cows,' he said, meaning this clearing of the
way
Post by ***@n
of
Post by XiaoMei
past agreements and positions would probably apply equally to the
union
Post by DI DA DI
as
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
it would to management.
In the two-hour exchange that followed, he also gave them a tutorial on
industrial relations, what it meant to be an effective union, and the
importance of non-confrontational, cooperative labour-management
relations
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
within Singapore's formula for success.
He came to power on the back of union support, he recounted to those in
need
Post by XiaoMei
of a history lesson. As a lawyer new to politics, he had done work for
unions for free. His pro-union credentials were as unimpeachable as his
pro-business record, he appeared to be saying.
But what he could not countenance was an adversarial relationship that
could
Post by XiaoMei
bring Singapore down.
Thus, he reasoned with the delegation, to win their minds rather than
break
Post by XiaoMei
their heads.
First, however, there was a reading of the riot act to one Captain Ryan
Goh.
Post by XiaoMei
The master politician was at work.
You were the prime mover, were you not, behind the machinations to vote
against the union leadership, he asked.
This, even though you were on the very council of the Air Line Pilots
Association-Singapore (Alpa-S)?
That fateful ouster was what had brought the pilots that afternoon to
the
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
Istana.
Alpa-S - which guards jealously its status as an independent union that
stays out of the tripartite loop - booted out its leaders after rueing
the
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
wage cuts that they had accepted and members had earlier endorsed.
The pilots agreed to the lower pay during the Sars outbreak when the
airline
Post by XiaoMei
was bleeding. But after it made a stunning turnaround a quarter later, a
whispering campaign began about the union being weak. The larger battle
ahead - negotiating a new collective agreement then in its last days -
needed stronger stomachs, the sentiment went.
Reading from a file, Mr Lee pulled out the following facts about Captain
Goh.
A Malaysian with permanent residence status here, he had accepted
Australian
Post by XiaoMei
PR in 2002, moved his wife and children to Perth, shipped his car and
sold
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
his flat.
You told someone from IE Singapore that the grass had stopped growing in
Singapore, did you not, he asked.
He turned to one of the pilots and asked if he knew the Malaysian had
bought
Post by XiaoMei
a house in Australia and had this option to bail out.
No, the person answered.
'No?' repeated Mr Lee.
'That's deception, isn't it?' he asked Capt Goh.
The pilot in the hot seat tried to defend himself but it was too late.
The
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
line in the sand between him and the Singaporeans had been drawn for
him.
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
'My daughter is still in school here,' he tried saying, adding this
showed
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
he still had roots in Singapore.
But wasn't that because she did not like school in Australia and came
back,
Post by XiaoMei
Mr Lee shot back calmly.
Silence.
The castigation, no doubt a tactic of divide-and-rule, also
established
Post by DI DA DI
a
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
more significant point: It is not up to PRs or other foreigners to get
into
Post by XiaoMei
union matters and play around with decisions that affect the rest of
Singaporeans.
Capt Goh had tried to undermine the interests of SIA and Singapore, he
said.
Post by XiaoMei
'If Singapore goes down, you go down,' he told the Singaporeans across
the
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
table. 'He doesn't go down.'
With that out of the way, he laid out what he wanted to achieve out of
the
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
meeting: a fresh start.
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you,' he told them.
'Tell me whether we can cooperate.'
Yes, they could tell him one thing and act another way, but he was not
interested in that.
'I don't hold you to blame for everything. Nor is the management
responsible
Post by XiaoMei
for all the things that have gone wrong. 'I want to create a new
partnership
Post by XiaoMei
of trust and cooperation, not confrontation,' he said.
The pilots needed to understand what was at stake. When members ousted
their
Post by XiaoMei
leaders, their actions jarred and suggested they were clueless about the
environment they operated in: An economy on the remake trying to ease
its
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
cost pressures and an aviation industry that will be forever changed by
the
Post by XiaoMei
wringer it went through these last few years.
SIA did not need hostile industrial relations that would weigh it down
at
Post by ***@n
a
Post by XiaoMei
time when the connectivity that the airline and Changi provided was
facing
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
intense competition. Without that connectivity that other parts of the
economy were premised upon, Singapore would suffer.
'So it puzzles me. Pilots are intelligent people. How is it you are
out
Post by DI DA DI
of
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
touch?' he asked rhetorically.
It was partly because, someone had told him, he said, pilots were out of
the
Post by XiaoMei
country half the time. Partly also, they were out of the know because
they
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
were not under the National Trades Union Congress, which would have kept
members apprised of the slightest twitch of its trouble-on-the-horizon
barometer.
Whatever the case, he set the parameters for future moves.
All National Wages Council recommendations must be accepted if the
airline
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
was to achieve flexibility and nimbleness to outlast the competition.
Wages would have to be as variable as possible. Profit-sharing must
factor
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
in return on capital. Retrenchment benefits must be capped at 25 years.
Medical benefits would no longer be fully paid for, a bitter pill almost
all
Post by XiaoMei
Singaporean workers have already swallowed, some as far back as a decade
ago.
But all these changes did not mean the pilots were being sold down the
river. They will be paid market rates and when there are extras, they
will
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
get more, he explained.
'Now, I want to hear what you have to say,' he said after an hour.
Over the next, the pilots vented their grievances, imploring for
understanding.
Captain Mok Hin Choon, the new president of Alpa-S, said the company had
to
Post by XiaoMei
reflect and see if it could bring along its people, pointing out that
even
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
its NTUC-related unions were unhappy.
'Trust has been missing for the last few years,' he said, adding that
'it
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
takes two hands to clap'.
Out of the bag leapt their biggest bugbear - the overseas-based pilots.
The
Post by XiaoMei
company kept rebuffing their proposals to relook the scheme which they
said
Post by XiaoMei
was inefficient, wasteful and resulted in rostering that left them with
scraps while their overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier
routes.
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
Flight operations was in charge, came the reply, when Mr Lee asked who
was
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
behind it all if they were right about the matter.
'If all this is true, then the flight operations must be blind or
stupid!
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
... I want an explanation from them because I cannot believe this,' he
said.
Post by XiaoMei
'You give me a paper, I will look at it.'
He promised the human resources of the airline would be revamped and
urged
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
the pilots to give new chief executive officer Chew Choon Seng a chance.
As trust was rebuilt, there should be more information sharing so both
sides
Post by XiaoMei
could work together.
They told him 38 pilots had left in recent months. Where were they
going,
Post by ***@n
he
Post by XiaoMei
wanted to know.
There will be changes, he said.
'I am assuring you that the Government will make sure that SIA acts in
good
Post by XiaoMei
faith,' he said.
Mr Lee went on to answer one of the main questions on the minds of
Singaporeans: Why did the Government need to intervene in an internal
company matter? 'We are the majority owners and we will ensure that they
act
Post by XiaoMei
in the interest of the country, and the interest of the country requires
cooperation, trust and confidence from the unions.'
Why did it have to be the Senior Minister?
As he explained it, he had dealt with the airline from the beginning, it
was
Post by XiaoMei
fair he saw to it that the restive relationship between the pilots in
the
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
early years still continuing today, end.
But he was also realistic enough to concede this much: The residual
feelings
Post by XiaoMei
of suspicion would still be there.
Capt Mok too made this plain enough when he told the media later Alpa-S
was
Post by XiaoMei
not ready to embrace NTUC.
But yes, he and the others pledged to work on a clean slate, work in
partnership with management and give things a go. They would use the
negotiations for the new collective agreement as a time for
trust-building.
Post by XiaoMei
By the end of it, it felt as if the fog of suspicion that had settled
between Government and Alpa-S these past months had a good chance of
lifting.
As the press walked in at the tail end of the meeting and posed
questions,
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
Captain Mok insisted on looking forward, vowing to make a clean start.
Details of difficulties with management? No, he wasn't keen on hitting
the
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
headlines with that.
Details of demands? No, not keen either.
Management should thank him for closing the books thus.
The meeting ended with handshakes all around, even with the
solemn-looking
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
Capt Goh.
If there was any sense of deja vu in the room, Captain Freddie Koh must
have
Post by XiaoMei
felt it most.
He was among a posse of union pilots Mr Lee summoned to the Istana in
1980
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
for daring to fan a go-slow action to vent their disgruntlement over pay
and
Post by XiaoMei
work conditions.
He told them then in unvarnished language: 'I do not want to do you in
but
Post by ***@n
I
Post by XiaoMei
will not let anyone do Singapore in.'
When trouble with Alpa-S began, Mr Lee said he wanted to clean up on the
restiveness that was resurfacing. 'This is a job that has to be finished
and
Post by XiaoMei
I'll finish it.'
Thursday afternoon moved towards that conclusion.
Looking back, throughout it all, the Senior Minister in effect employed
the
Post by XiaoMei
familiar strategy of good cop, bad cop. Except that he played both
roles.
Post by ***@n
Post by XiaoMei
Now that he and the Government have said their piece and the pilots have
made peace, SIA needs to break its deafening silence. Soon.
renew
2004-03-01 10:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by DI DA DI
You know why the meeting is held in the Istana and not elsewhere?
Perhaps I would like to share with you a joke heard whilst I was travelling
on the MRT.

Had the meeting been held in a plane over flying Singapore and going nowhere
but encirling Singapore just for the sake of this meeting. Guess who will be
thrown out once the plane window is forced opened.

Jest and laughter follows.
truth
2004-03-01 01:13:59 UTC
Permalink
In a mismatch, only the small man need to use
miracle tactic to win. The big fella win hands down.
So where is the mastery ?
Don't slant the story until it backfire.
It is right that SM should step in to correct wrongs
on all sides. But to claim it as a display of mastery ?
... I will rather not.
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
---
SM's meeting with pilots: What happened at the Istana
ST 29/2/2004
By Zuraidah Ibrahim
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you.' -- SM Lee Kuan Yew
AS THE guests stepped into the pristine hallways of the Istana last Thursday
afternoon, it was clear from their expectant faces that they were not there
on one of those routine diplomatic goodwill visits.
This was no courtesy call.
The 14 Singapore Airlines pilots - a carefully selected mix of unionists
ousted from leadership last November and their successors - were first
ushered into a drawing room.
Some sat armed with files. Others waited with folded arms. Eventually, they
were shepherded up to the chandelier-draped Sheares Room. Several paused at
the bottom of the stairs, staring curiously through glass doors into a
roomful of journalists.
Upstairs, they were about to face the man who had served them a series of
public rebukes over the past few months.
He was after 'the principals and the ringleaders' behind the ouster of the
union leadership, he had said.
'If they play this game, there will be broken heads,' he said on another
occasion.
'Think carefully,' he cautioned them later, suspecting that the pilots were
on a collision course with management.
That Thursday afternoon, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew began with an
explanation.
'I decided to take up this issue since I've been involved with Singapore
Airlines from the start,' he said.
In case the pilots needed reminding, he pointed out that it was he who had
secured the pact for SIA's first and most lucrative route then to London. It
was he who had asked for Changi to be built, despite expert studies
favouring Paya Lebar. It was he who had seen the airline through its
turbulent early years.
'So,' he said, 'I have no intention for it to go down'.
If the pilots had anticipated facing an uncompromising force, they were
right.
But if they had feared that this determination would extend to siding
completely with SIA's management, they were wrong.
Instead, he gave his word, several times, that SIA management would be put
right.
'There will be no sacred cows,' he said, meaning this clearing of the way of
past agreements and positions would probably apply equally to the union as
it would to management.
In the two-hour exchange that followed, he also gave them a tutorial on
industrial relations, what it meant to be an effective union, and the
importance of non-confrontational, cooperative labour-management relations
within Singapore's formula for success.
He came to power on the back of union support, he recounted to those in need
of a history lesson. As a lawyer new to politics, he had done work for
unions for free. His pro-union credentials were as unimpeachable as his
pro-business record, he appeared to be saying.
But what he could not countenance was an adversarial relationship that could
bring Singapore down.
Thus, he reasoned with the delegation, to win their minds rather than break
their heads.
First, however, there was a reading of the riot act to one Captain Ryan Goh.
The master politician was at work.
You were the prime mover, were you not, behind the machinations to vote
against the union leadership, he asked.
This, even though you were on the very council of the Air Line Pilots
Association-Singapore (Alpa-S)?
That fateful ouster was what had brought the pilots that afternoon to the
Istana.
Alpa-S - which guards jealously its status as an independent union that
stays out of the tripartite loop - booted out its leaders after rueing the
wage cuts that they had accepted and members had earlier endorsed.
The pilots agreed to the lower pay during the Sars outbreak when the airline
was bleeding. But after it made a stunning turnaround a quarter later, a
whispering campaign began about the union being weak. The larger battle
ahead - negotiating a new collective agreement then in its last days -
needed stronger stomachs, the sentiment went.
Reading from a file, Mr Lee pulled out the following facts about Captain
Goh.
A Malaysian with permanent residence status here, he had accepted Australian
PR in 2002, moved his wife and children to Perth, shipped his car and sold
his flat.
You told someone from IE Singapore that the grass had stopped growing in
Singapore, did you not, he asked.
He turned to one of the pilots and asked if he knew the Malaysian had bought
a house in Australia and had this option to bail out.
No, the person answered.
'No?' repeated Mr Lee.
'That's deception, isn't it?' he asked Capt Goh.
The pilot in the hot seat tried to defend himself but it was too late. The
line in the sand between him and the Singaporeans had been drawn for him.
'My daughter is still in school here,' he tried saying, adding this showed
he still had roots in Singapore.
But wasn't that because she did not like school in Australia and came back,
Mr Lee shot back calmly.
Silence.
The castigation, no doubt a tactic of divide-and-rule, also established a
more significant point: It is not up to PRs or other foreigners to get into
union matters and play around with decisions that affect the rest of
Singaporeans.
Capt Goh had tried to undermine the interests of SIA and Singapore, he said.
'If Singapore goes down, you go down,' he told the Singaporeans across the
table. 'He doesn't go down.'
With that out of the way, he laid out what he wanted to achieve out of the
meeting: a fresh start.
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you,' he told them.
'Tell me whether we can cooperate.'
Yes, they could tell him one thing and act another way, but he was not
interested in that.
'I don't hold you to blame for everything. Nor is the management responsible
for all the things that have gone wrong. 'I want to create a new partnership
of trust and cooperation, not confrontation,' he said.
The pilots needed to understand what was at stake. When members ousted their
leaders, their actions jarred and suggested they were clueless about the
environment they operated in: An economy on the remake trying to ease its
cost pressures and an aviation industry that will be forever changed by the
wringer it went through these last few years.
SIA did not need hostile industrial relations that would weigh it down at a
time when the connectivity that the airline and Changi provided was facing
intense competition. Without that connectivity that other parts of the
economy were premised upon, Singapore would suffer.
'So it puzzles me. Pilots are intelligent people. How is it you are out of
touch?' he asked rhetorically.
It was partly because, someone had told him, he said, pilots were out of the
country half the time. Partly also, they were out of the know because they
were not under the National Trades Union Congress, which would have kept
members apprised of the slightest twitch of its trouble-on-the-horizon
barometer.
Whatever the case, he set the parameters for future moves.
All National Wages Council recommendations must be accepted if the airline
was to achieve flexibility and nimbleness to outlast the competition.
Wages would have to be as variable as possible. Profit-sharing must factor
in return on capital. Retrenchment benefits must be capped at 25 years.
Medical benefits would no longer be fully paid for, a bitter pill almost all
Singaporean workers have already swallowed, some as far back as a decade
ago.
But all these changes did not mean the pilots were being sold down the
river. They will be paid market rates and when there are extras, they will
get more, he explained.
'Now, I want to hear what you have to say,' he said after an hour.
Over the next, the pilots vented their grievances, imploring for
understanding.
Captain Mok Hin Choon, the new president of Alpa-S, said the company had to
reflect and see if it could bring along its people, pointing out that even
its NTUC-related unions were unhappy.
'Trust has been missing for the last few years,' he said, adding that 'it
takes two hands to clap'.
Out of the bag leapt their biggest bugbear - the overseas-based pilots. The
company kept rebuffing their proposals to relook the scheme which they said
was inefficient, wasteful and resulted in rostering that left them with
scraps while their overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes.
Flight operations was in charge, came the reply, when Mr Lee asked who was
behind it all if they were right about the matter.
'If all this is true, then the flight operations must be blind or stupid!
... I want an explanation from them because I cannot believe this,' he said.
'You give me a paper, I will look at it.'
He promised the human resources of the airline would be revamped and urged
the pilots to give new chief executive officer Chew Choon Seng a chance.
As trust was rebuilt, there should be more information sharing so both sides
could work together.
They told him 38 pilots had left in recent months. Where were they going, he
wanted to know.
There will be changes, he said.
'I am assuring you that the Government will make sure that SIA acts in good
faith,' he said.
Mr Lee went on to answer one of the main questions on the minds of
Singaporeans: Why did the Government need to intervene in an internal
company matter? 'We are the majority owners and we will ensure that they act
in the interest of the country, and the interest of the country requires
cooperation, trust and confidence from the unions.'
Why did it have to be the Senior Minister?
As he explained it, he had dealt with the airline from the beginning, it was
fair he saw to it that the restive relationship between the pilots in the
early years still continuing today, end.
But he was also realistic enough to concede this much: The residual feelings
of suspicion would still be there.
Capt Mok too made this plain enough when he told the media later Alpa-S was
not ready to embrace NTUC.
But yes, he and the others pledged to work on a clean slate, work in
partnership with management and give things a go. They would use the
negotiations for the new collective agreement as a time for
trust-building.
Post by XiaoMei
By the end of it, it felt as if the fog of suspicion that had settled
between Government and Alpa-S these past months had a good chance of
lifting.
As the press walked in at the tail end of the meeting and posed questions,
Captain Mok insisted on looking forward, vowing to make a clean start.
Details of difficulties with management? No, he wasn't keen on hitting the
headlines with that.
Details of demands? No, not keen either.
Management should thank him for closing the books thus.
The meeting ended with handshakes all around, even with the solemn-looking
Capt Goh.
If there was any sense of deja vu in the room, Captain Freddie Koh must have
felt it most.
He was among a posse of union pilots Mr Lee summoned to the Istana in 1980
for daring to fan a go-slow action to vent their disgruntlement over pay and
work conditions.
He told them then in unvarnished language: 'I do not want to do you in but I
will not let anyone do Singapore in.'
When trouble with Alpa-S began, Mr Lee said he wanted to clean up on the
restiveness that was resurfacing. 'This is a job that has to be finished and
I'll finish it.'
Thursday afternoon moved towards that conclusion.
Looking back, throughout it all, the Senior Minister in effect employed the
familiar strategy of good cop, bad cop. Except that he played both roles.
Now that he and the Government have said their piece and the pilots have
made peace, SIA needs to break its deafening silence. Soon.
DGPSC
2004-03-01 09:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Typical approach... intimidation... a show of force by invoking fear that he
has a file on everyone.
I just could not comprehend under what basis of law does SM has the legal
right to summon all the doh-doh pilots for such a dressing down meeting? If
SM is the law, it just shows the legal non-righteousness of the country...
Can someone educate me from the legal perspective please? Could Capt Goh
refuse to attend such a meeting? If so, what kind of legal consequence may
there be?
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
---
SM's meeting with pilots: What happened at the Istana
ST 29/2/2004
By Zuraidah Ibrahim
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you.' -- SM Lee Kuan Yew
AS THE guests stepped into the pristine hallways of the Istana last Thursday
afternoon, it was clear from their expectant faces that they were not there
on one of those routine diplomatic goodwill visits.
This was no courtesy call.
The 14 Singapore Airlines pilots - a carefully selected mix of unionists
ousted from leadership last November and their successors - were first
ushered into a drawing room.
Some sat armed with files. Others waited with folded arms. Eventually, they
were shepherded up to the chandelier-draped Sheares Room. Several paused at
the bottom of the stairs, staring curiously through glass doors into a
roomful of journalists.
Upstairs, they were about to face the man who had served them a series of
public rebukes over the past few months.
He was after 'the principals and the ringleaders' behind the ouster of the
union leadership, he had said.
'If they play this game, there will be broken heads,' he said on another
occasion.
'Think carefully,' he cautioned them later, suspecting that the pilots were
on a collision course with management.
That Thursday afternoon, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew began with an
explanation.
'I decided to take up this issue since I've been involved with Singapore
Airlines from the start,' he said.
In case the pilots needed reminding, he pointed out that it was he who had
secured the pact for SIA's first and most lucrative route then to London. It
was he who had asked for Changi to be built, despite expert studies
favouring Paya Lebar. It was he who had seen the airline through its
turbulent early years.
'So,' he said, 'I have no intention for it to go down'.
If the pilots had anticipated facing an uncompromising force, they were
right.
But if they had feared that this determination would extend to siding
completely with SIA's management, they were wrong.
Instead, he gave his word, several times, that SIA management would be put
right.
'There will be no sacred cows,' he said, meaning this clearing of the way of
past agreements and positions would probably apply equally to the union as
it would to management.
In the two-hour exchange that followed, he also gave them a tutorial on
industrial relations, what it meant to be an effective union, and the
importance of non-confrontational, cooperative labour-management relations
within Singapore's formula for success.
He came to power on the back of union support, he recounted to those in need
of a history lesson. As a lawyer new to politics, he had done work for
unions for free. His pro-union credentials were as unimpeachable as his
pro-business record, he appeared to be saying.
But what he could not countenance was an adversarial relationship that could
bring Singapore down.
Thus, he reasoned with the delegation, to win their minds rather than break
their heads.
First, however, there was a reading of the riot act to one Captain Ryan Goh.
The master politician was at work.
You were the prime mover, were you not, behind the machinations to vote
against the union leadership, he asked.
This, even though you were on the very council of the Air Line Pilots
Association-Singapore (Alpa-S)?
That fateful ouster was what had brought the pilots that afternoon to the
Istana.
Alpa-S - which guards jealously its status as an independent union that
stays out of the tripartite loop - booted out its leaders after rueing the
wage cuts that they had accepted and members had earlier endorsed.
The pilots agreed to the lower pay during the Sars outbreak when the airline
was bleeding. But after it made a stunning turnaround a quarter later, a
whispering campaign began about the union being weak. The larger battle
ahead - negotiating a new collective agreement then in its last days -
needed stronger stomachs, the sentiment went.
Reading from a file, Mr Lee pulled out the following facts about Captain
Goh.
A Malaysian with permanent residence status here, he had accepted Australian
PR in 2002, moved his wife and children to Perth, shipped his car and sold
his flat.
You told someone from IE Singapore that the grass had stopped growing in
Singapore, did you not, he asked.
He turned to one of the pilots and asked if he knew the Malaysian had bought
a house in Australia and had this option to bail out.
No, the person answered.
'No?' repeated Mr Lee.
'That's deception, isn't it?' he asked Capt Goh.
The pilot in the hot seat tried to defend himself but it was too late. The
line in the sand between him and the Singaporeans had been drawn for him.
'My daughter is still in school here,' he tried saying, adding this showed
he still had roots in Singapore.
But wasn't that because she did not like school in Australia and came back,
Mr Lee shot back calmly.
Silence.
The castigation, no doubt a tactic of divide-and-rule, also established a
more significant point: It is not up to PRs or other foreigners to get into
union matters and play around with decisions that affect the rest of
Singaporeans.
Capt Goh had tried to undermine the interests of SIA and Singapore, he said.
'If Singapore goes down, you go down,' he told the Singaporeans across the
table. 'He doesn't go down.'
With that out of the way, he laid out what he wanted to achieve out of the
meeting: a fresh start.
'You play straight with me, I play straight with you. You play ducks and
drakes with me, I play ducks and drakes with you,' he told them.
'Tell me whether we can cooperate.'
Yes, they could tell him one thing and act another way, but he was not
interested in that.
'I don't hold you to blame for everything. Nor is the management responsible
for all the things that have gone wrong. 'I want to create a new partnership
of trust and cooperation, not confrontation,' he said.
The pilots needed to understand what was at stake. When members ousted their
leaders, their actions jarred and suggested they were clueless about the
environment they operated in: An economy on the remake trying to ease its
cost pressures and an aviation industry that will be forever changed by the
wringer it went through these last few years.
SIA did not need hostile industrial relations that would weigh it down at a
time when the connectivity that the airline and Changi provided was facing
intense competition. Without that connectivity that other parts of the
economy were premised upon, Singapore would suffer.
'So it puzzles me. Pilots are intelligent people. How is it you are out of
touch?' he asked rhetorically.
It was partly because, someone had told him, he said, pilots were out of the
country half the time. Partly also, they were out of the know because they
were not under the National Trades Union Congress, which would have kept
members apprised of the slightest twitch of its trouble-on-the-horizon
barometer.
Whatever the case, he set the parameters for future moves.
All National Wages Council recommendations must be accepted if the airline
was to achieve flexibility and nimbleness to outlast the competition.
Wages would have to be as variable as possible. Profit-sharing must factor
in return on capital. Retrenchment benefits must be capped at 25 years.
Medical benefits would no longer be fully paid for, a bitter pill almost all
Singaporean workers have already swallowed, some as far back as a decade
ago.
But all these changes did not mean the pilots were being sold down the
river. They will be paid market rates and when there are extras, they will
get more, he explained.
'Now, I want to hear what you have to say,' he said after an hour.
Over the next, the pilots vented their grievances, imploring for
understanding.
Captain Mok Hin Choon, the new president of Alpa-S, said the company had to
reflect and see if it could bring along its people, pointing out that even
its NTUC-related unions were unhappy.
'Trust has been missing for the last few years,' he said, adding that 'it
takes two hands to clap'.
Out of the bag leapt their biggest bugbear - the overseas-based pilots. The
company kept rebuffing their proposals to relook the scheme which they said
was inefficient, wasteful and resulted in rostering that left them with
scraps while their overseas counterparts cherry-picked the juicier routes.
Flight operations was in charge, came the reply, when Mr Lee asked who was
behind it all if they were right about the matter.
'If all this is true, then the flight operations must be blind or stupid!
... I want an explanation from them because I cannot believe this,' he said.
'You give me a paper, I will look at it.'
He promised the human resources of the airline would be revamped and urged
the pilots to give new chief executive officer Chew Choon Seng a chance.
As trust was rebuilt, there should be more information sharing so both sides
could work together.
They told him 38 pilots had left in recent months. Where were they going, he
wanted to know.
There will be changes, he said.
'I am assuring you that the Government will make sure that SIA acts in good
faith,' he said.
Mr Lee went on to answer one of the main questions on the minds of
Singaporeans: Why did the Government need to intervene in an internal
company matter? 'We are the majority owners and we will ensure that they act
in the interest of the country, and the interest of the country requires
cooperation, trust and confidence from the unions.'
Why did it have to be the Senior Minister?
As he explained it, he had dealt with the airline from the beginning, it was
fair he saw to it that the restive relationship between the pilots in the
early years still continuing today, end.
But he was also realistic enough to concede this much: The residual feelings
of suspicion would still be there.
Capt Mok too made this plain enough when he told the media later Alpa-S was
not ready to embrace NTUC.
But yes, he and the others pledged to work on a clean slate, work in
partnership with management and give things a go. They would use the
negotiations for the new collective agreement as a time for
trust-building.
Post by XiaoMei
By the end of it, it felt as if the fog of suspicion that had settled
between Government and Alpa-S these past months had a good chance of
lifting.
As the press walked in at the tail end of the meeting and posed questions,
Captain Mok insisted on looking forward, vowing to make a clean start.
Details of difficulties with management? No, he wasn't keen on hitting the
headlines with that.
Details of demands? No, not keen either.
Management should thank him for closing the books thus.
The meeting ended with handshakes all around, even with the solemn-looking
Capt Goh.
If there was any sense of deja vu in the room, Captain Freddie Koh must have
felt it most.
He was among a posse of union pilots Mr Lee summoned to the Istana in 1980
for daring to fan a go-slow action to vent their disgruntlement over pay and
work conditions.
He told them then in unvarnished language: 'I do not want to do you in but I
will not let anyone do Singapore in.'
When trouble with Alpa-S began, Mr Lee said he wanted to clean up on the
restiveness that was resurfacing. 'This is a job that has to be finished and
I'll finish it.'
Thursday afternoon moved towards that conclusion.
Looking back, throughout it all, the Senior Minister in effect employed the
familiar strategy of good cop, bad cop. Except that he played both roles.
Now that he and the Government have said their piece and the pilots have
made peace, SIA needs to break its deafening silence. Soon.
STRAIGHTS TIMED
2004-03-01 10:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by DGPSC
Typical approach... intimidation... a show of force by invoking fear that he
has a file on everyone.
I just could not comprehend under what basis of law does SM has the legal
right to summon all the doh-doh pilots for such a dressing down meeting? If
SM is the law, it just shows the legal non-righteousness of the country...
Can someone educate me from the legal perspective please? Could Capt Goh
refuse to attend such a meeting? If so, what kind of legal consequence may
there be?
just one more thing ; what is wrong in this captain having
moved house to australia ; i am quite puzzled as why he became
defensive by insisting his daughter is still schooling in
singapore ! as a PR, his nationality and loyalty belongs to
another country...why should he be taken to task for being on
the question of loyalty to singapore !?....perhaps i am missing
something here ; can someone enlighten...

besides,if loyalty to the nation is a issue ; that precisely
is also the issue of the union....their unhappiness has its
root on why foreign based pilots are being better taken care of,
overriding the union benefits...perhaps,if the union is given a
priority over foreign based pilots ; i speculate most pilots
would 'swim and sink' with SIA too....something is amiss here !

now,SIA had itself acted on the basis of self-interest by keeping
the cohort of foreign based pilots both as a contingency plan;
should the union strike ,and for a better bargaining position
with the union...why than should SIA & SM expect loyalty from
the union !
Ironm@n
2004-03-02 16:38:08 UTC
Permalink
If he is still against SM. Most probably he will follow Tang Liang Hong as
fugitive in Australia.
Darth BiRdYz
2004-03-01 14:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
There's nothing to read from your unimaginative regurgitations.

Even if the SM was simply puking his guts out you would have called his puke
an exotic cuisine, fuckwit.
Winter
2004-03-01 17:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
Funny right? all those drastic action of changing union rules, tough
talks of broken heads, etc... when LKY don't even know what is going
on in his own back yard? - ie. the mis-management of empolyee's
relationship by SIA (it is reported that other unions in SIA also has
low morale problem) and the grievances of the pilots.

It seems that the root cause of the problem is in SIA's management.
That prompted ALPA-S to re-organize to protect their interest, as
management had not been listening to they have to say. So why was LKY
hitting hard at a union who is trying to put things right? The
government is too protective of the SIA management, then how can the
latter be strong? In retrospect, could the management of SIA had been
so arrogant because they assumed the government will be on their side?
Put it another way, if it was not for the ALPA-S' initiatives to make
things right, the poor management practice will still prevails and
that will surely spell doom for SIA.

About pilot Ryan Goh, despite the published info (which Goh agreed)
and the interpretations that painted him in a bad light (which Goh
don't agree and has given his own account), so far I have not read
anything, really zero, that suggest any wrong doings or malicious
intention to jeopadize SIA, that justify such drastic actions by the
government. Even if you said this to pre-empt the worst scenario, are
we going to see more of such behaviour in the name of pre-emption?
Furthermore, it is clear now that the pilot's grievances was not even
sorted before, so is such pre-emptive actions make sense?

About those published info on pilot Goh, to me is quite irrelevant...
Even for a Singapore citizen, you mean in order to serve in a union,
he cannot take up PR in another country, cannot purchase property in
another country, cannot send his child to study in another country?
Also the news reported that when LKY asked another pilot if he knew
about Ryan Goh's links in Australia, that pilot says no. And thereby
LKY suggested that that it is deception on Ryan Goh's part... but, how
could LKY have jumped to such conclusion base on ONE pilot saying he
doesn't know? And how do we know the other Singaporean pilots in the
exco don't have property in another Country and don't have a bail out
route?

LKY also commented that Ryan Goh told someone the grass has stopped
growing in Singapore... but isn't that what we've been reading from
many colum writers in our main newspapers? That we are losing our
competitiveness, plants moved out, business are looking to overseas
markets etc... aren't we going to ban those colum writers too?

This whole issue seems very funny to me... it could boils down to poor
communication and poor listening. It is like, your child hit out at
another kid but he did not tell you; when the other kid gather his
friends to protect himself, your child provide you with wrong info
that the kid is going to destroy him and so, thinking the kid is evil,
you threatened and warned the kid not to be funny. Only later to find
out that it is your child who is the cause of the problem. So the rest
is just to save face...
ardeedee
2004-03-02 02:13:29 UTC
Permalink
We have to put all things in SIA into perspective.

Firstly SIA is here to stay for the govt in power as they need SIA like the
wings God did not give them to fly and fly they must to get in and out of
this island at least once a month.
Secondly - faced with this constraint they have to ensure SIA is always
under political control and that includes the management and the staff and
contractual workers
Thirdly - Control must mean in effect that they will always do their bidding
and to never stray into collision path with politicians.
Fourthly - SIA must be well run , highly efficient in all services and
absolutely under beck and call at all times as demonstrated by Mrs. LKY
incident in London.
Fifth - this means also that the total lot of employees in SIA are compliant
and made to be compliant within the unions and associations that are legal.
Sixth -Whenever dissent and autocracy from management or employees rear
their heads they have to be decapitated in public execution for future
effect.
Seventh - SIA crew and management and pilots are well paid in the context of
a developed country or better still in developing country.
Eight- because of local shortages pilots have to be augmented on an adhoc
basis from foreign sources which means higher more attractive remunerations
as compared to locals which breeds resentment.
Ninth - Requirement of foreign pilots and employees is a policy and needs
fine tuning as they could have a programme to train and obtain more pilots
from local schools as the yearly cohort from A levels and Polys and Unis are
high and many graduates are readily available for training and employment.
Tenth - SIA employees are in fact paid much higher than the other sectors of
local society for a job that is more glamorous and not that daunting or
challenging and which easily attracts many entrants.
Eleven - There is a world wide shortage of pilots and this is expected to
generate into a stampede for higher paying airlines within 2 years - SIA
must recruit locally from the local education sources and go actively into
polys and colleges to recruit and train.
Twelve - The chairmanship of SIA must be given to a more imaginative and
innovative personality close to the govt and with the years of the govt. The
management is generally well run and orderly as SIA has reached
international standards and retains a very good image but there is much room
from improvement from the pilots as I have seen and experienced at first
hand habits that are disturbing in some of them that needs redressing.
Thirteen - LKY has to take a back seat and give SIA a chance to grow out of
its present slight arrest in effective management-pilots relationship
because his style is addictive to the civil service and while it works for
him it may not work for others. But a more enlightened but just as effective
personality must lead the airline.

Just my peanuts advice.
Post by Winter
Post by XiaoMei
The masterful SM Lee at work. The public roasting of the Malaysian pilot
seems especially satisfying. Read on and learn folks.
Funny right? all those drastic action of changing union rules, tough
talks of broken heads, etc... when LKY don't even know what is going
on in his own back yard? - ie. the mis-management of empolyee's
relationship by SIA (it is reported that other unions in SIA also has
low morale problem) and the grievances of the pilots.
It seems that the root cause of the problem is in SIA's management.
That prompted ALPA-S to re-organize to protect their interest, as
management had not been listening to they have to say. So why was LKY
hitting hard at a union who is trying to put things right? The
government is too protective of the SIA management, then how can the
latter be strong? In retrospect, could the management of SIA had been
so arrogant because they assumed the government will be on their side?
Put it another way, if it was not for the ALPA-S' initiatives to make
things right, the poor management practice will still prevails and
that will surely spell doom for SIA.
About pilot Ryan Goh, despite the published info (which Goh agreed)
and the interpretations that painted him in a bad light (which Goh
don't agree and has given his own account), so far I have not read
anything, really zero, that suggest any wrong doings or malicious
intention to jeopadize SIA, that justify such drastic actions by the
government. Even if you said this to pre-empt the worst scenario, are
we going to see more of such behaviour in the name of pre-emption?
Furthermore, it is clear now that the pilot's grievances was not even
sorted before, so is such pre-emptive actions make sense?
About those published info on pilot Goh, to me is quite irrelevant...
Even for a Singapore citizen, you mean in order to serve in a union,
he cannot take up PR in another country, cannot purchase property in
another country, cannot send his child to study in another country?
Also the news reported that when LKY asked another pilot if he knew
about Ryan Goh's links in Australia, that pilot says no. And thereby
LKY suggested that that it is deception on Ryan Goh's part... but, how
could LKY have jumped to such conclusion base on ONE pilot saying he
doesn't know? And how do we know the other Singaporean pilots in the
exco don't have property in another Country and don't have a bail out
route?
LKY also commented that Ryan Goh told someone the grass has stopped
growing in Singapore... but isn't that what we've been reading from
many colum writers in our main newspapers? That we are losing our
competitiveness, plants moved out, business are looking to overseas
markets etc... aren't we going to ban those colum writers too?
This whole issue seems very funny to me... it could boils down to poor
communication and poor listening. It is like, your child hit out at
another kid but he did not tell you; when the other kid gather his
friends to protect himself, your child provide you with wrong info
that the kid is going to destroy him and so, thinking the kid is evil,
you threatened and warned the kid not to be funny. Only later to find
out that it is your child who is the cause of the problem. So the rest
is just to save face...
w-o-r-l-d-p-i-s-s-e-d
2004-03-03 06:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ardeedee
Thirdly - Control must mean in effect that they will always do their bidding
and to never stray into collision path with politicians.
I'm sure a more open and consultative form of managemnet will also
prevent such collisions.
Post by ardeedee
Fifth - this means also that the total lot of employees in SIA are compliant
and made to be compliant within the unions and associations that are legal.
Sixth -Whenever dissent and autocracy from management or employees rear
their heads they have to be decapitated in public execution for future
effect.
In the long run, it'll be bad. Like that, no honest feedback to the
management will ever happen....like the current Feedback Unit of the
govn't.
Post by ardeedee
Seventh - SIA crew and management and pilots are well paid in the context of
a developed country or better still in developing country.
Compare to a developing country, yes they are better paid, compare to
a developed country...sadly, they are not any better paid.

This comes from a frien who is a steward in SQ. In fact from what I
understand, the shift work of a SQ cabin crew is a lot more taxing
than those from SwissAir or KLM. In SQ, they have exchange programs
with other airline where cabin crews from other airlines join SQ to
gain inflight experience (on howto serve asian travellers). However SQ
itself never allow their cabin crew to join other airlines b'cos they
scared cabin crew start comparing perks, benefits and responsibilities
enjoyed on other airlines.

Similarly, highest paid pilots in Asia are in Cathay Pacific, not SIA.
When CX was in crisis, these pilots also kowpehkowbu, but eventually
accepted their fate and took a temp pay cut along with the management.
CX went out of that crisis....no interference, no head roll threats
from any China govn't. I think it's just 2 or 3 years ago where
rumours were heard abt CX going Chap 11.
Post by ardeedee
Eight- because of local shortages pilots have to be augmented on an adhoc
basis from foreign sources which means higher more attractive remunerations
as compared to locals which breeds resentment.
Actually there is no shortage of local pilots in the past. Back in the
80s, SIA gave preference to masaleh pilots when employing. At one
time, the furthest a local pilot can go is 2nd Officer nia nia while
the Cpt is always an angmoh.
Post by ardeedee
Ninth - Requirement of foreign pilots and employees is a policy and needs
fine tuning as they could have a programme to train and obtain more pilots
from local schools as the yearly cohort from A levels and Polys and Unis are
high and many graduates are readily available for training and employment.
Agree.
Post by ardeedee
Twelve - The chairmanship of SIA must be given to a more imaginative and
innovative personality close to the govt and with the years of the govt. The
management is generally well run and orderly as SIA has reached
international standards and retains a very good image but there is much room
from improvement from the pilots as I have seen and experienced at first
hand habits that are disturbing in some of them that needs redressing.
That's also what everyone said abt Enron before the revelation.
Post by ardeedee
Thirteen - LKY has to take a back seat and give SIA a chance to grow out of
its present slight arrest in effective management-pilots relationship
because his style is addictive to the civil service and while it works for
him it may not work for others. But a more enlightened but just as effective
personality must lead the airline.
Just my peanuts advice.
Nice article. Lots of points to ponder. Thanks.
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